Reading the story about the Wal-Mart worker who was killed in a stampede yesterday reminded me to check up on WakeUpWalMart.com. Our family stopped shopping at Wal-Mart several years ago now. In fact, it’s become a little joke among our friends that whenever they say they bought something at Wal-Mart, they immediately turn to us and say, “Sorry; I know you guys don’t like Wal-Mart.” So, maybe we talked a little too much about it back when we first stopped going there. 🙂
But now it’s been a while, so I thought a friendly holiday reminder on why you shouldn’t shop at Wal-Mart would be in order:
you really should just be Amish and churn your own butter. You might be happier
There’s nothing wrong with Walmart or any other big box store.
I suppose being anti-Walmart is great if you have enough money to shop at higher end stores; I don’t happen to be one of them. But just where can we shop to avoid products made in China? I grew up hearing, “Eat all your food; there are kids in China that are starving.” Now to the little kids in my life who put things in their mouths, I say, “Get that out of your mouth; it was made in China.” I guess the message stuck because this week the five-year-old said we should make a list of all the toys made in China–a long list. Or, C.J., is it the clientele at Wal-Mart that you choose to ignore? If I were to choose a reason for not shopping at Wal-Mart it would probably be the lack of benefits for employees–but that would be true probably of even the high end stores.
Ryan — You have a problem with the Amish? And where did I say I wasn’t happy? You’re just full of erroneous conclusions today.
Sharon says:
Wal-Mart is a big reason why American workers don’t make enough to shop at “higher end” stores. Patronizing them only exacerbates the problem.
This is unfortunately very true. It’s practically impossible to avoid all products made in China. However, more than 10% of all U.S. imports from China go to Wal-Mart. And, as the ad says, 70% of the products on Wal-Mart’s shelves are from China. If the best we can do is cut down on the number of Chinese imports we buy, Wal-Mart isn’t the place to do it.
What are you implying? My parents and most of my friends shop at Wal-Mart, so no, I have nothing against the clientele.
There are many reasons I choose not to shop at Wal-Mart. The commercial in my post wasn’t a comprehensive case against them.
I also have chosen not to shop at Walmart. I think the best thing Walmart could do for out community is to pack up and leave.
CJ- According to a study done by the Century Foundation, the average 200 employee Wal-Mart actually costs taxpayers more than $400,000.00 annually in subsides to poorly paid, uninsured workers, who cannot afford health care, child care or market-rate housing.
I’d say Wal-Mart is no bargain, especially in Peoria.
C.J., Beth, etc.–I actually agree with much of what you both said–ideally, at least. C.J., I probably shouldn’t have thrown that in about the clientele–I wouldn’t peg you that way. However, I do have friends that stay away for that reason–of course, dependent upon the location of the Wal-Mart.
Beth mentions what it costs taxpayers because of poorly paid, uninsured workers, etc. My question: Where would all these people work (in Peoria, at least) if it weren’t for all the Wal-Marts? Wouldn’t taxpayers still be footing the bill for them if they had no jobs at all? I know that Cosco (right name??) and Wal-Mart have often been contrasted on treatment of employees, etc. But it didn’t last long in Peoria–and was out of the way for me to shop, at least. What kind of benefits do other Peoria retailers pay–Bergner’s, Macy’s, Target, etc.? Of course, then we can talk fast food restaurants like McDonalds which upset me as much as Wal-Mart with regard to pay and benefits. or Kroger’s that tries to convince us to use the “serve-yourself-stations” to avoid paying employees. I’ve always been upset with the fast food places for using so much “teen-age” labor, especially working late at night when they should be preparing for school, etc.
I know I will probably cause all sorts of discussion (which is the purpose of the site) when I state that the arguments about health care and cost to taxpayers is why I favor national health care. I can be attacked on all sides because of lack of knowledge of economic issues. However, I know that the working poor have a hard time getting benefits at any place of employment. I believe companies (not as big as Wal-Mart) could afford to have more employees if they didn’t have to pay for benefits. I also understand that it is a vicious circle–if we didn’t shop at Wal-Mart, there wouldn’t be a Wal-Mart with all these “negatives,” but where would people with less money shop?
The World Is Flat by Friedman has a good section about the pros and cons of Wal-Mart (and how it fits into globalization, etc.) If I remember correctly, he brings up all the arguments we have hit–and left me with the quandary of what side to be on with regard to Wal-Mart. I confess it left me with the “if you can’t beat them, join them” decision. However, I do acknowledge all the philosophical (and economic) arguments against Wal-Mart.
There is a great book called the Big Box Swindle by Stacy Mitchell, which ilustrates the many ways that Walmart does not operate on a level playing field and how it is actually detrimental to a community. There is a hidden price for all those Walmart deals, Sharon. It is way too high for me to pay.
I could probably survive without Wal-Mart–but can you agree that there are many people who really can’t afford the luxury of worrying about the “hidden price?” I will read the book, however. If memory serves me correctly, Friedman’s book does point out that Wal-Mart has been excetionally smart (not necessarily ethical) in operating in the global economy in which we find ourselves–mostly by being the first to use modern technology to maintain inventory, etc.
I would be the first to agree that Wal-Mart certainly has played dirty in opening up stores that have pushed Mom-and-Pop stores out of business and then even closed the Wal-Mart later. Of course, that could be said of all chain stores. I’ll have to read the book–I’m trying to think of other ways that Wal-Mart is detrimental to say, Peoria.
I’m not one of those “Wal-Mart is evil” types. What I find disheartening is the excitement in some cities and towns when the Wal-Mart supercenter opens for business. In times past, such was once reserved for a new factory or distribution center – now it’s for retail developments, or bike trails 🙂
(For a “times past” example, go look at the Journal Star’s May 1, 1958 issue and see how much space and individual articles were devoted to the Pillsbury Co. setting up operations in two-third’s of General Warehouse & Transportation Co.’s year-old 60,000 sq. ft. East Peoria warehouse – I can only imagine the excitement generated when Pillsbury built its own two-building distribution center nearby a few years later!).
I guess it has to do with the perceived need to “dumb it down” for people to understand it, and almost everybody can relate to retail shopping.
C. J.
When I read the title I assumed it was going to be your annual announcement that soon you would be going quiet from time to time preparing for and then taping, editing etc the annual Grace Presbyterian Church Choir Christmas gift to the community and world for that matter. Alas – it wasn’t but since I asked when are the scheduled showings to be aired this year? Again a heart felt thanks to all involved, both volunteers and professionals such as yourself – those programs have been a Christmas tradition to us even of different faiths. For those who haven’t taken the time or made the effort to watch them I heartily recommend you do so!
Shopping at Wal*Mart is, to me, a descent into chaos. I will only go into a store like that when no other options exist. The stores’ design puts one in an agitated state of mind. The aisles are disorganized. The marketing crass. The signage and displays are elementary, lacking any style that might uplift. In this depressing atmosphere, kids scream and couples cuss at one another. When there, I want to climb on top a stack of Hannah Montana dolls and ask everyone to look into their shopping carts and into their hearts. You are saving money, so they say, but at what cost to the human spirit?
It’s not an economic or a class issue. It’s one of maintaining sanity, a matter of saying you can’t take away my spirit, my humanity. Of just standing up and shouting “I am better than this.”
without malice — Thank you for the kind words. The live performances are next weekend (Dec. 4, 5, 6, and 7). The television program will be aired twice: Dec. 24 at 10:30 p.m. and Dec. 25 at 12:00 noon. The broadcast is an hour long.
And, yes, the Chronicle will be going on hiatus soon….
Wow! I didn’t realize how miserable and useless I should feel by entering a Wal-Mart. The lack of decor, etc.–isn’t that one of the reasons things are cheaper at Wal-Mart (besides the fact that they don’t pay their employees, etc.) Or maybe I just taught too long and was used to some of the behaviors that occur at Wal-Mart. Or maybe I just don’t expect to be uplifted when I go to buy some vitamins, some laundry supplies, etc. Or maybe it’s because I do frequently run into a former student who does make me feel good. Now yesterday I was a bit upset with myself for wasting an hour at Bergner’s. I had one of those $10 (free) coupons and someone gave me another one as I entered the store. An hour later–after standing in line with two items from a sale rack–I realized that the coupon couldn’t be used on special sale items and soon found that it wasn’t good for much of anything because everything was already on sale (for more than $10). Then I did feel conned, but I got over it–and hopefully next year I won’t fall for any Black Friday come-on.
Bergner’s really depresses me too. Psuedo-sophistication. Lame marketing. Ill-fitting clothes. No customer service. Just forget Black Friday hype. It’s nonsense. Truth be told, I just hate shopping in general. Mostly I go to Target, as they have mastered the art of making the customer feel comfortable. That’s where I buy cleaning supplies and household items. Most of my shopping, however, is done online or at Salvation Army and Goodwill. I can get most of the clothing I need at these stores. Groceries? Haddad’s, which is small, unique, and comfortable. I also frequent UFS, where I pick up quircky bargains and gifts. Most other shopping is done online – it just makes life easier. No, I don’t expect to be uplifted when I shop at a store, but I don’t want to be brought down so low either.
Walmart is just soooooo evil, and we are sending so many jobs to China… Give me a break. Last year China imported $321 billion into the U.S. and we ended the year with about a $256 billion trade deficit with them. Sure, on its own a pretty large number except when you look at the big picture and figure what that means to $13.8 TRILLION in economic output last year. That’s a whopping 1.9% of the economy. Obviously we’d all like that to be 0%, but it just goes to show that Walmart and globalization isn’t all imminent doom and gloom.
And to all of you “mom and pop” shoppers, how many of those places do you think offer incredible salaries and excellent benefit plans? Not many, this is retail folks it’s all about overhead and how little you can get by with whether you’re a Walmart or mom and pop. If you’re going to use that as your measuring stick for the type of shop you’re going to patronize then please tell me what the pay and benefits are at your Walmart replacement store.
Walmart isn’t the evil empire, it’s a mom and pop that actually had a good model and deserved duplicating. Its called capitalism.
CJ – In today’s business model, I think it is impossible to avoid the human rights violations that you attribute only to Wal-Mart. Seriously, unless you grow your own food and make your own toys and commodities, I suspect you are contributing to our global problems as much as anyone else.
11Bravo — First of all, communities into which Wal-Mart moves on average lose 1.4 retail jobs for every 1 retail job they provide. So, even if the wages and benefits were the same, Wal-Mart is still a losing proposition. But, of course, they’re not the same, because you’re forgetting that not all the displaced jobs are employees. They’re also employers — the “mom and pop” store owners you deride.
Also, several companies have outsourced their manufacturing to China to cut costs in order to remain suppliers for Wal-Mart (e.g., Levi’s jeans). That moves good-paying manufacturing jobs overseas, which is bad for the American middle class.
Diane — You’re making stuff up. Please cite where I attributed “human rights violations . . . only to Wal-Mart.” I believe I already addressed in an earlier comment the challenge of avoiding Chinese-manufactured goods.
I love Haddad’s, too, and very much want the store to remain competitive. However, I have to admit I can’t afford to do all my shopping there. I am, however, glad to see their parking lot full.
C.J., unless you can cite the hourly wages of the guy at the Solo cup factory that lost his job to China, all of the “losing good paying manufacturing jobs” crap is your word against mine. There are certainly good paying manufacturing jobs, but they aren’t in assembling GI Joes and Barbie dolls. They are in skilled manufacturing, like the kind going on at CAT and Excel and other places in the area, not the kind that produce a lot of Walmart goods.
As for the job statistics, what of the aggregate savings of the shoppers of Walmart? That money is spent in other ways whether it be on a bigger house, more vacation, or a number of other ways that send that money back into the economy. It doesn’t just evaporate people reap the benefit of the efficiency.
And CJ, I don’t deride any mom and pop store. You are the only person deriding a mom and pop, its the one started by Sam Walton in Bentonville, Arkansas. For whatever reason you think that small town shops are great as long as they stay small. What benefit or reward is it for anyone starting a small retail store to stay small? The goal for any small business owner should be to expand and in doing so you inevitably are able to cut custs through economies of scale just like Walmart does. The only difference is the size of their operation.
I think it is unrealistic to expect to purchase low cost consumer goods and not have them imported from some other country. The reality of labor costs in the U.S. is that most toys, small electronics, and clothes would be too expensive for the average consumer otherwise.
Caterpillar and it suppliers, which are important economic players in the Central Illinois area are in a position to weather the current economic downturn because they have expanded their business into China and other parts of Asia. As 11Bravo pointed out the trade balance is not perfect but in any event it must flow both ways for the U.S. economy to survive.
The Walmart website states that medical benefit coverage is offered to employees at a monthly cost of $5 to $8 per month, as well as a 401K match and shopping discounts. Sounds good to me! I used to work in a small business in which an advanced degree was legally required to perform the job and I received none of these benefits.
Does Walmart pay lower wages to its employees than other retailers? What wage should Walmart or any other employer pay for jobs requiring minimal education and skills? When I look at some employees that work at Walmart and witness how unproductive they seem to be, compounded by their disrespectful attitude toward customers, I can’t imagine if not for Walmart, where these individuals would be employed.
I shop at Walmart and I believe I realize quite a bit of savings by doing so. I must say I do not enjoy shopping there but, like Sharon, I cannot afford nor justify paying higher prices elsewhere when I do not have to.
I also shop at Haddadd’s. It’s not charity on my part by any means.
It’s the only place in Peoria I know that still carries Raviolio’s.
And the pople who work there are friendly, and it doesn’t seem fake when they smile at you and thank you for shopping there.
And it’s a shirt walk from my car to the door.
And I don’t have to walk the length of a city block to find what I want.
Amd the carry The Community Word.
It helps me to step back and see …for thousands of years, throughout time, China and India have had the largest economies in the world.
Sometime in the last 200 years, a relative snap of the fingers, America took that title.
Think about how this came about. Inventions like the printing press, the cotton gin, the assembly line, lasers, computers, cell phones…industrial, science, and medical breakthroughs…the transportation breakthroughs (that David P. Jordan is familiar with.)
Using today’s communications, it is now easier for other countries to copy these advances and see the best ways to do things. As they move into genetic and stem cell research(we sure gave ’em a big head start there), biotech, robotics using new innovations like supermarket tools like barcode readers and adopting management practices like six sigma, they will continue to gain on USA, Japan, UK, and Germany.
Things will return to their natural balance.
Many economists predict that in 40 years, China’s economy will be larger than USA, UK, Japan, and India combined.
We’re not in second place yet, but these next 40 years will be different from the previous 200. I agree that its probably smart to teach Chinese in schools and embrace the coming opportunities.
Stepping back and looking at the big picture helps me accept that the Chinese workers are just like us. They just want a place where they can come in in the morning and get to work and hopefully be able to get ahead. I’ve got no choice but to accept them as competition and/or co-workers. They’re here and they ain’t goin’ away.
In 40 years, it’s not going to matter if I’m fond of the way Walmart stocks their shelves or not. I think I’ll run down there now and see if they carry that Ma-Jong game yet.
-Scott
We still have freedom of choice in this country; if you don’t like Wal-Mart, don’t shop there-if you like Bergners, shop there. You don’t like China? Get in the unemployment line if you work at Cat if you shut down China trade. Get real, this isn’t the 40’s or fifties, this is real world, get used to it.
Of course you can do all your shopping at Haddads, if you want to. It is all about priorities… which is more important, 20 cent cheaper foods, or a neighborhood business providing service and community? Stop buying all the useless, built in obsolescence, consumer crap and spend your money in and on your community. Damn, how much do we spend on soda, beer, potato chips and other useless and nutritionless foods?
Nickel and Dimed is Barbara Ehrenreich’s book on minimum wage slavery (including a great section on Walmart) and George Ritzer’s book The McDonaldization of Society is the definitive book on globalization, crass consumerism and the marketing of nothing.
They just happened to be the two texts for ICC’s “The American and His Culture” (sic) course.
Shay, I am quite inclined to appreciate your point of view more than all the others on this subject. We have no choice but to get used to the idea that the USA has to share the economic playing field. Especially, the part about the Chinese workers being just like us, etc. Also, it is all that technology (the barcodes, etc.) that Wal-Mart put in place early on–and that is what has led to its success. As others have pointed out, Wal-Mart was a mom and pop store that grew like topsy. Perhaps consumers should have stopped its progress early on, etc., but now it and the other box stores are part of urban culture, at least. Someone mentioned that some communities are having success doing away with Wal-Mart, etc. My guess is that those communities are not urban areas with a high percentage of poverty.
Kcdad, I am not at all sure that you’re in touch with reality–maybe all of us on this blog could afford to avoid the box stores with their cheaper prices, but even average middle class families do not have that luxury. As far as the ICC courses are concerned, are those the only two texts for the class or does ICC make any effort to present a balanced view–perhaps with Friedman’s book, The World Is Flat, etc?
I would also recommend the film “Independent Amnerca,” a documentory by two journalists who travel the country to look at communities who have been affected by Big Box stores. There are mnay communities who do not want Walmart, or choose to limit the gorwth of big boxes in their areas.
First of all, I realize that this is a polarizing issue. I don’t expect everyone, or even most of you, to agree with me. That’s fine — it’s a free country and all of that. But for me, I can’t in good conscience shop at Wal-Mart.
There are a litany of reasons, many of which you can find at WakeUpWalMart.com: repeated companywide violations of the Fair Labor Standards Act (missed breaks, missed meal times, forcing empoyees to work off the clock, etc.), inadequate health care (only 43% of their employees are covered, company reps admit that many state aid agencies offer better coverage for less money for many low-paid Wal-Mart employees), deleterious effects on local economies (we’ve already talked about that), documented sex discrimination, blatant union-busting, etc.
One of the big things for me is the abuse of Chinese labor. Ultimately, the issue comes down to trade policy at the federal level. The U.S. should not be trading with China as long as their human rights abuses continue. It’s immoral. It’s no different than exploiting slave labor in the U.S. in the early 1800s — the only difference now is that we outsource it to China. We use their slave labor, but reap the same benefits — low prices.
China Labor Watch reported recently:
Wal-Mart is the largest importer of Chinese-made goods, and the low prices they’re able to offer are dependent on this kind of worker exploitation. Yes, I know it’s nearly impossible to avoid products made in China because they’re so pervasive in U. S. stores today. But I can minimize as much as possible the amount of Chinese goods I buy. Given that 70% of the goods on Wal-Mart’s shelves are from China, and given all the other issues I listed earlier, I simply can’t in good conscience shop there. I don’t care how low their prices are.
C.J. – Polarizing “yes” but exposing us to all different points of view is the real advantage of this site. I appreciate all your reasons for avoiding Wal-Mart (and actually agree). I still believe that Wal-Mart is the more publicized “evil,” but that there are plenty of retailers who come close to being as unconscionable. Living in West Peoria and not really liking to drive that much and limited to daytime driving, I don’t have all that many choices of shopping places (that keeping moving farther and farther to the north), I will probably keep shopping at Wal-Mart, but not without a twinge of conscience–which I already had before this discussion. One other point–making an excuse for shopping at Wal-Mart–the very people who are most hurt by Wal-Mart wages and benefits, etc., are also the ones who will continue to shop at Wal-Mart because they really don’t have a choice.
Have to wonder what Sam Walton would be thinking today. I remember long ago, when he was still alive, Wal-Mart was trumpeting ‘Made in America’. Back then Wal-Mart went to lengths to encourage and support homegrown products. Since his death… NO More.
profits profits profits!!! Increase the pay off for our stock holders… screw the suppliers (there are always poorer people willing to supply us for less), screw the customers (there are nearly 7 billion people on this planet… we’ll find more customers), screw the community (WE are the community)… all that matters is the immediate gratification of our stock holders…
Welcome to American business, 21st century style
We haven’t shopped at a Wal-Mart in probably six years. And we get the same comments from our friends when they say they got it at Wal-Mart: “Sorry, I know you guys don’t shop there”.
Lets face it people, WalMart is not going away. Those who have a conviction against going there can continue to live by their convictions. Those of us who have a hard time singling out one store for all the ills of the world will continue to shop there.
Walmart ISN’T the problem, it is a symptom of the problem. Crass commercialism, consumerism and “I gotta have it to be the fully expressed me” mentality of Americans.
If you know people who work at Walmart, you would NEVER shop there. (I am not referring to the managers or “professionals”, if they can be called that)
Point of Order says: “Those of us who have a hard time singling out one store for all the ills of the world will continue to shop there.”
As you well know, I never said Wal-Mart was responsible for “all the ills of the world.” You’re setting up a straw man argument. But hey, if that’s what it takes for you to assuage your conscience and justify shopping at Wal-Mart, don’t let me stand in your way. 😉
Kcdad: I’m not quite clear on your meaning. Are you saying that we wouldn’t shop at Wal-mart because the people we know aren’t treated well, etc? Many of the people who work there probably do not have a high school education–so where would you expect them to work? So if a boycott of Wal-Mart could really work, these people would have few other job opportunities. Their other choices are fast-food restaurants. Caterpillar used to be an option for high-school grads and, as in the case of members of my own family (older generation), those without a high school education. That door closed with the end of the factory system in America–and with the new world of globalization. I would also guess that customers guilty of crass commercialism and consumerism–those with extreme materialistic values and wealth-would never shop at Wal-Mart. I think Wal-Mart caters more to low and middle-class shoppers–those for whom a bargain on necessities is more important than a break on luxury items–which aren’t available at Wal-Mart. I totally agree that Americans, including myself, are much, much too materialistic. However, I don’t want to live in a Marxist society where my materialism would be restricted by the government. I’m glad that can be a moral choice and glad that there are those like Bill Gates, who choose to put their wealth back into the country, etc. My elderly aunt and I were just having the “Wal-Mart” discussion because she misses being able to walk around at Wal-Mart–the kind of store that wasn’t available to her in her youth. She lives in a world where no one has ever suggested to her that there was something wrong with shopping at Wal-Mart. I believe that people like her are the majority and Wal-Mart will continue to thrive.
Sharon:”Many of the people who work there probably do not have a high school education–so where would you expect them to work? So if a boycott of Wal-Mart could really work, these people would have few other job opportunities. ”
How many jobs do you think Walmart absorbed from other businesses? Walmart did not come into town and “create” jobs. They took those jobs from smaller mom and pop stores. Not only that, they probably hire LESS people than the businesses they chased out of the market. AND they (as pointed out earlier) don’t use local producers of goods.
I know you don’t mean to imply that because their employees are under educated we should ignore the treatment they receive, or suggest they deserve it.
There is nothing wrong with one stop shopping… I remember my folks parking at Sheridan Village and us going from the Pet Store, The Book Store, to Bergners, to Kreskes (?), to Sporting Goods, to Shoe stores, to whatever… THAT was one stop shopping!
Kcdad: I can outdo you (because I’m older)–one of my first jobs was at the “new” Bergner’s in the “new” village, but I remember shopping downtown–the only shopping area in the city. The stores weren’t open at night or on Sundays, so my father wisely took my mom and me window shopping, especially just looking at the big Christmas display in the window. My parents also shopped at mom and pop grocery stores–I think owned by the Poppen family (before the big chains like Kroger’s came to town)–and the people who worked in the mom and pop stores were all related–they didn’t hire employees off the street. And I guarantee that they didn’t hire any black employees. Of course, neither did Caterpillar. I worked in Education and Training at Cat in 1955 and I remember asking my boss if he would ever hire a black college graduate and his answer was, “Only if he were more qualified than any white applicant.” I’m not sure why I asked that question because at the time I had only met three or four black people in my life–one four-year child who lived in my neighborhood in the south end and 10 years later, the only two black students at Woodruff.
No, of course, I don’t want employees to be mistreated just because they do not have a high school education, but I want to know where you want them to work now–not 60 years ago because those days are gone. When I was young, there just weren’t very many stores and, therefore, not many employees (and I believe all retail was pretty much limited to four or four blocks downtown). Of course, in those days there weren’t that many women in the workforce either. My parents did not have a high school education; my father didn’t make that much money, but his pride would never have allowed my mother to work. She didn’t go to work until the 1960s after my dad died–and finding a job for her was hard.
As a bit of an aside, I think stores like Wal-Mart were made possible in large part because of the invention of plastic and other man-made materials. Furniture, etc., had to be made of wood; leather coats of leather; man-made fibers of silk, cotton, etc. These items were expensive and–in quantity–out of reach of most lower/middle class consumers. Man-made products made it possible for “consumerism”–that, I believe, is the real culprit that led to this world of materialism.
Mainly, I just want to know where–if Wal-Mart and the fast food restaurants and all other businesses where employees get no benefits were closed (the ultimate result of your idealistic desires)–would these people work. I just want some reality here; are you all so young that you really don’t remember what life was like in the 1940s? Good or bad–this is a different world.
One more example: if a family (or me, for that matter) trying to make ends meet can buy a can of Campbell’s chicken noodle soup at Wal-Mart for $1.50, do you really expect they will choose to go to another store and pay from $1.80 to $2.78 for the same can of soup? Do you expect those who make minimum wage to consider the decision to buy at Wal-Mart a moral decision?
I love working at wal-mart. It’s a fun place to be and it helps pay the bills and I get some decent heath coverage though I have to pay a bit. Seems a lot of people like to talk for us who work here but none of you work here I suppose because no one talks like that who I work with. Now people are talking about this place being a union joint down the road. If I lose my job because of that happening then I curse you all who hate wal-mart if some of these stores get closed and I get laid off because of your loud mouths and politcal opinions on how things should be for me and my friends.
Don’t worry, Wal-Mart won’t go union. Whenever talk of that comes about, the corporate office actively seeks out who is in favor of it and gets rid of them before anything can happen.
Sherri: pay a bit?
Why don’t you go ahead and share some more information with us so we can really understand how great it is to work at Walmart… tell us about overtime and breaks. Tell us about your vacations and retirement program.
Of course, tell us in what department you are getting your $7.50 hourly wage for working?
I have no beef with anyone who works at Walmart or any place else. We live in a society that REQUIRES us to work and contribute to the insatiable economic god of capitalism. My beef is with companies that exploit this requirement forcing people to take three or more jobs (as Bush called it: “Uniquely American”) just to make their offerings at the altar.
This is personal because I work for one of those companies. Their solution to not paying benefits is to suggest taking on a another part time position, and another one… get another part time job some place else…
Kcdad and others: Why do you keep singling out Wal-Mart when almost all minimum wage jobs do not provide health benefits and retirement plans? (Maybe overall treatment of employees is bad at Wal-Mart, but much of that is subjective and, therefore, hard to prove and to compare with other companies). How many companies (retailers) use only part-time help to avoid paying benefits, etc.? Even ICC is guilty of that–and 150 would be, also, if they could get away with it. I have a problem with that practice, also–and it is why I support national health care. People who work should have health care–many do not and do not make a wage that allows them to afford buying it on their own. Minimum wage jobs aren’t going to go away, so something has to be done to provide health care.
Kcdad, I continue to have a problem with your analysis since you prefer Marxism. What are the wage, working conditions, health care, and retirement plan in a Marxist economic system? Certainly, I see problems with capitalism, but I don’t know what better system with which to replace it. Perhaps we just keep striving to improve the system we have.
Forgot: What about the new math, science academy–if it hires part-time instructors, pays lower wages, doesn’t pay benefits, doesn’t offer retirement–all efforts to break the union? How many of you who have used all these reasons to object to Wal-Mart will speak out against that school?
Sharon is going ‘nuke’ on us!
Will be interesting to see responses to her last post!
Used to be lower paying jobs [fast food, department stores, etc] were ‘tolerated’ because they provided paying jobs for ‘teens’, teaching them resposibility, etc. Would be interesting to see how the trend is going – Min Pay Jobs in U.S. > Number employed, age range, pay scale, opportunity for ‘company advancement [if any], etc.
How many people are working min pay jobs because they need ‘extra money’ vs. working these jobs to SURVIVE…..?
Bet we can guess which way the numbers lean.
May be going out on a limb here, but I would argue that we need not look ‘outside’ the U.S. to find examples of ‘slave labor’.
New Voice: OK, I’m dense and don’t understand the going “Nuke” on us reference. Which post are you referring to–the last “long” one or the unusually “short” one about the academy.
I have long been a strong opponent of the fast food industry primarily because–in my opinion–it has provided teens with anything but a place to learn work ethics and responsibility. I often overheard one of my students bragging that he/she had told the boss off at McDonald’s. Then I would ask how old the boss was–you guessed it, under 18. I objected strongly to work programs at Manual that sent kids to work at McDonald’s for work experience–where they often had kids working late at night when they should be sleeping or getting ready for the next day. One of our ROTC instructors went as far as to report McDonald’s for violating the rules about how many hours a week a minor could work.
When talking to my students about working at McDonald’s, I often used the “slave labor” argument, and they would bristle because they didn’t understand my point. I would explain that they were doing the jobs that should go to adults, jobs that should provide benefits for families, etc.–that McDonald’s was making a whole lot of profit on their backs.
And I do have to agree that Wal-Mart is no better–actually, I have never believed otherwise. But I don’t think we are going to solve the problem by boycotting these businesses because the very people who are hurt by them are the ones who most need the jobs and the cheaper places to shop. You can’t “pull the rug” out from under them without providing a replacement. There must be a better solution. I don’t at all want to discount all of your concerns and your efforts–but I think that staying away from Wal-Mart only serves to make you feel good; it really isn’t solving the problem. I know that when I read Tom Friedman’s earlier book, The Lexus and the Olive Tree, I was very depressed because it made very clear that many of the students that I was teaching would end up as McDonald’s and Wal-Mart employees–at least in this stage (if not permanently) of globalization.
Another aside: Mom and Pop stores–in today’s PJS obits, Carl Grimm (94) died; as the obit states, his father started the grocery store at 620 Main (not sure what is there now) and his two brothers and sisters ran it. It was maybe smaller than Haddad’s and I remember how sad people were when it closed to make way for the chain store grocery stores. But again it was a family business–few outsiders got jobs there. Haddad’s, for a small business, does a good job of hiring teenagers who do learn responsibility there–it used to be mostly Manual kids, but no more. Now if you ask where they go to school, you don’t hear “Manual.” Also, some Haddad’s employees are long-time employees–they provide stability, etc.
Sharon: It would seem that you support national health care becauseyou feel everyone should have health insurance – correct? What about the national health insurance of Canada and other national health care systems — do you like the delivery and variety of care as well as the waiting in line for health? What would be the trade-offs for health care for all and the type of care that everyone would receive?
Sharon,
‘Nuke’ = good posts.
Reference to any of yours above…………….
Do not get used to compliments from me. I am sure we will disagree about something sooner or later!
Jim, I guess I am paranoid–right? I certainly thought “Nuke” was a bad thing. And I am going to reveal that you privately referred to the same post about the academy as an example of my “fear mongering. ” I’m used to people disagreeing with me–that’s part of the fun of this blog; it causes us all to think, etc. Stowell is even nice enough to e-mail me privately instead of attacking me here–and then I don’t return the favor of privacy.
Karrie, what you seem to be asking is, “Sharon, aren’t you glad you are one of the lucky ones who get health care? So would you want to be inconvenienced if everyone had health care?” Whenever the subject of national health care comes up, people seem to react negatively to people who are on the dole (no jobs, etc.) getting health care. Well, they already get it at taxpayer expense in the emergency rooms. And to upset everyone, I don’t object to my taxes going to such a “Christian” effort; there are far worse uses of my taxes–in my opinion. However, the wrong that I would like to see righted is the plight of the working poor–those who work 8 hours a day just like the rest of us who get health benefits(sorry, Jim, I know you think teachers work only 6 1/2 hrs–please forgive me I watched the meeting last night and couldn’t resist this one). So, Karrie, I really don’t feel good about having a privilege that isn’t open to others–especially one that is so much a necessity to life. Actually, I believe as a retired teacher (and because of the insurance choice that I can afford) I belong to the OSF plan which is a really an HMO–at least, I have a limited choice as to doctors–but I’m so far not unhappy with my choices.