I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised, considering we already have warrantless wiretaps, but I could hardly believe my ears this morning as I listened to the news-reader on NPR talk about this (from the Associated Press):
The Justice Department is considering letting the FBI investigate Americans without any evidence of wrongdoing, relying instead on a terrorist profile that could single out Muslims, Arabs or other racial and ethnic groups.
Law enforcement officials say the proposed policy would help them do exactly what Congress demanded after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks: root out terrorists before they strike. […]
Currently, FBI agents need specific reasons — like evidence or allegations that a law probably has been violated — to investigate U.S. citizens and legal residents. The new policy, law enforcement officials told The Associated Press, would let agents open preliminary terrorism investigations after mining public records and intelligence to build a profile of traits that, taken together, were deemed suspicious.
And our civil liberties continue to erode. Now they want to start investigating U.S. citizens based on their ethnicity, religion, and travel patterns. Fantastic. Now I suppose this will also open the door to investigating all pro-life Christians who take part in peaceful anti-abortion demonstrations because their “profile” shows they could be a clinic bomber. Or if Arab Americans decide to visit their families in the Middle East, they’re possible terrorists, naturally.
I hope the irony isn’t lost on anyone that this news comes out the day before we celebrate “Independence Day.” I wonder if people working with fireworks can be investigated; that would be a good front for a terrorist, right? Why, there’s a terrorist around every corner if you look hard enough.
CJ,
Here’s another scary one.
http://techdirt.com/articles/20080702/1959151579.shtml
This isn’t anything new for the FBI. For decades J. Edgar Hoover investigated whomever he wanted based upon his own likes and dislikes and his personal moral code, never mind that he was a crossdressing closet queen. So really this “new” policy is just a return to normalcy for the FBI.
So, if someone commits a crime long enough, we should just go ahead and legalize it? And expand it, even?
Hoover overstepped his legal authority and was allowed to get away with it. That’s different than formally ensconcing these policies in the law of the land.
Ensconcing?
Wrong track. Unfortunately, there is a lot of legislation already on the books which has eroded our civil liberties and it will continue. And if there is no outcry from the masses, we reap what is being sown.
Knight is right. You can always find instances of individuals going over the line from time to time (I think Hoover’s transgressions were much less than his political opponents claims), but saying it’s govt. policy is another matter.
But then, 9-11.
“…And our civil liberties continue to erode. Now they want to start investigating U.S. citizens based on their ethnicity, religion, and travel patterns… …investigating all pro-life Christians who take part in peaceful anti-abortion demonstrations because their “profile” shows they could be a clinic bomber…”
EXACTLY! I not trying to be a flag-waving, gun-toting, lily-white here, but PROFILING is an extremely useful tool when it comes to police work…on any level. The fact that 99.9% of all terrorist attacks against the U.S. [and allies] is carried out by Arab-Persian [Muslim] extremists is enough of a reason to start ‘targeting’ peoples of specific race and/or religion, etc. This sounds simplistic, but if that 99.9% were Chinese, we would be looking at Asians, etc.
If I were an anti-abortion advocate, radical enough to just go marching and sign-waving, I would fully expect to be ‘investigated’. Why? Because somewhere, someone at some point decided sign-waving was not good enough or radical enough! Time to breakout the rifles and explosives!
I would rather the FBI try preventing crimes then solving crimes. ‘Solving’ a crime usually means someone is already dead.
Excuse my spelling/typing errors.
Yes, I expect the FBI to continue solving crimes…you know what I mean.
Wow, New Voice. Maybe we should just round up all the Arab Americans and put them in internment camps, huh?
I think we should profile tall, white, former army vets with Irish sounding last names. With all these vets coming back with their Post Traumatic Stress, they are surely bound to snap. All these Iraq and Afgan vets are just terrorists in the making, fully trained, and hardened.
Remember Oklahoma!!
“When fascism comes to America it will come wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.”
– Sinclair Lewis
Simpleton!
Seriously though… we are NOT talking about rounding anyone up …at least not yet.
Homeland Security?
Civil liberties are being trounced everyday! The next thing you know we’ll all be yelling Hiel McCain, Seig Heil [sarcasm]!
Have you ever noticed that people who advocate a strong homeland security policy, are immediately accused of creating or supporting the transition of the U.S. from a Republican Democracy to a police State?
Just what Civil Liberties are being violated folks? Before you all start breaking out the Constitution, remember…..the Constitution was written just a ‘few’ years before the twins fell.
What security measures against terrorism, etc do you recommend C.J.?
>new voice said “The fact that 99.9% of all terrorist attacks against the U.S. [and allies] is carried out by Arab-Persian [Muslim] extremists is enough of a reason to start ‘targeting’ peoples of specific race and/or religion, etc.”
>cj said “Wow, New Voice. Maybe we should just round up all the Arab Americans and put them in internment camps, huh?”
CJ – Is there some part of new voices comment that you did you not understand?
A clip from “The Siege”
And this was made before 9/11. Just sayin’
To answer New Voice:
“Just what Civil Liberties are being violated folks? Before you all start breaking out the Constitution, remember…..the Constitution was written just a ‘few’ years before the twins fell.”
First, the Constitution is the law, binding on our government. If agents of the government act outside the Constitution, then they are law-breakers, not law-enforcers.
Second, here’s an example of what civil liberties are being violated:
On March 1 Walter F. Murphy, the McCormick professor of jurisprudence emeritus at Princeton University and a Marine veteran, “tried to use the curb-side check in” when boarding a flight to Newark. He “was denied a boarding pass because I was on the Terrorist Watch list. …I presented my credentials from the Marine Corps to … American Airlines. One of the two people to whom I talked … offered a frightening comment: ‘Have you been in any peace marches? We ban a lot of people from flying because of that.’ I explained that I had not so marched but had, in September, 2006, given a lecture at Princeton, televised and put on the Web, highly critical of George Bush for his many violations of the Constitution. ‘That’ll do it,’ the man said.”
Anon: What is not to understand? Maybe you really are a simpleton. Shall I make it clearer for you? I am not anti-Arab, Muslim or anything else, but with a few exceptions-Remember Oklahoma!!- just who do YOU think is responsible for the major terror attacks against U.S. sovereignty, Native Americans?
Don’t be an idiot or let your liberalism get carried away.
Seth-Ezra: I am sure that Murphy was so distraught, he went home and committed suicide… You are only telling half the story. American Airlines can ban whoever they want for whatever reason they want. I am not saying this is right, but this not government policy [no shirt, no service?].
“First, the Constitution is the law, binding on our government. If agents of the government act outside the Constitution, then they are law-breakers, not law-enforcers.”
Sure…….. What about the countless issues that have developed since this country was founded? Abortion, Prohibition, Appeal of Pro, women voting, etc……
Amendments…? Who needs them? Interpreting the Constitution only seems justifiable to ‘ultra-liberals’ when the interpretation appears ‘socially acceptable’.
One last: We all honor America’s vets. Part of the tribute we pay them is buy acknowledging the fact that liberty comes at a high price.
I would think that the last thing Murphy-a former Marine- would whine about is American Airlines and their treatment of him.
Yes, yes…I am paranoid blah, blah, blah.
By the way. DOES anyone have ANY suggestions about what, if anything, should be done to improve this nation’s security?
New Voice, I was agreeing with you.
“American Airlines can ban whoever they want for whatever reason they want. I am not saying this is right, but this not government policy [no shirt, no service?].”
So what you’re saying is AA makes their own terroist watch list without any help from the government?
Interesting.
Anonymous: Sorry. Feel free to agree with me anytime you like.
MAZR: Are you actually familiar with the Murphy case? AA does not make up its own terrorist list[but I do and your on it].
If you and Seth actually care to research this story a little more, you’ll find out Murphy did indeed board his plane and complete his flight. That HIS name is on a ‘Terror Watch List’ or ‘No-Fly-List’ has NEVER been confirmed… Murphy was the first to admit this.
Anonymous — I understand him all too well, I fear.
New Voice — Well, we can start with the fourteenth amendment. It’s pretty well established that racial profiling violates the “equal protection under the law” clause. It may violate other amendments, like the fourth and sixth, too.
As far as homeland security, I think it’s acceptable to subject visitors to the U.S. to a more vigorous background check before issuing a visa, and that could very well include the type of data mining they’re describing. But not U.S. citizens, who are protected by the constitution. The FBI would have to get a constitutional amendment before going that far.
C.J. – I understand what you are saying. I am not a ‘security-at-any-cost’ type of person. IS it really racial profiling? The U.S./FBI puts all types of suspected and wanted criminals, etc. on lists. The U.S. places entire nations on lists suspected of supporting terrorism. Is it race or is it nationality? Political affiliation? More than enough ‘U.S. citizens’ have been discovered funneling money out of the U.S. to Muslim countries. Unless all of these ‘predominately Muslim’ countries all have crappy museum projects of their own….I wonder where the money is going?
Probable Cause is part of 4th amend.
I am sure not every person of Arab/Persian decent is being monitered by the FBI.
Not sure what to make of GITMO. Lets not go down that road……………… Do I want to see the U.S. become a police state? No. But let me say this, subjecting ‘visitors’ to the U.S. to a more vigorous background check before issuing a visa was about ALL they did before 9/11.
By the way. DOES anyone have ANY suggestions about what, if anything, should be done to improve this nation’s security?
Left by New Voice on July 3rd, 2008
well the first thing we could do is stop selling of our country to foreigners.
As for Hoover and his actions he was in a time when the mob and others were ruling the country and he had no compunctions about taking them on. He feared no one. He was given free reign to save the country from inside and out. And believe me when I tell you he did rule with free reign and he did a lot more than has ever come out in public. My father knew him well.
OMG.. waaaaah about 9/11. waah.
Enuff already. Rev Wright was right, we got what we deserved… we have been terrorizing other peoples for generations, including our own. (Anyone notice the backgrounds of the Grumman employees recently released? They were not “civilians”. Said operation, despite the government and CNN’s report WAS a military rescue. Center of operations was in Arizona. Please note also: Grumman was just awarded another multi million dollar contract with our government)
NOTHING justifies our government violating the principles that it is based upon. “Those who would give up liberty for security deserve neither.”
You wanna solve the problem of our government? Eliminate the Federal Reserve, cancel all government debt to private banks. Re-establish the government with a real Treasury department.
Regulate the advertising, and insurance industries. Make them accountable for their promises and lies. Re-task the FBI to be the Federal Investigation Bureau (FIB, ironically), and task them to perform government oversight, not citizen oversight. The problem with this country is the government, not the people. Oh, yeah, the best way to save this country is to stop listening to Rush, Hannity, Levine, Coulter, and O’Reilly… those corporate fascist mouthpieces have nothing to say to the free people of the United States.
Methinks he’s just trollin’ for comments with that above post. yes, the government shouldn’t intrude on our rights. Yes, groups hate us and 9-11 was a reaction to that.
But no, no civilian population should be attacked.
A great deal of what KC and the Sunshine Band said is true, except………………
Lawyers, Civil Liberties watch dogs, etc, are carrying-on about security issues and how they infringe upon ‘our’ civil rights. What about the rights of 3,000 plus 9/11 victims? What about the civil rights/liberties of the thousands of family members of the victims of 9/11? What about the thousands of terror victims from incidents that predate 9/11? What about the rights of Americans scared to fly or venture most anywhere overseas because they fear for their lives? Whose Civil Liberties are really being threatened here?
If any of you activists out there want something to do…try going after Big Oil, the Pharmaceutical Companies, or any of the chemical companies polluting our air, soil and seas…
Big govt. in this country is guilty of a hell of a lot more harm than good, I agree, but lets get our priorities straight!!!!
By the way… I LOVED STARTING THE FIREWORKS SHOW WITH THE PLEDGE!!!!!!!! HA!
Dead people have no rights.
The living have rights, and if want to keep “our” people living and enjoying their rights, we need to start granting others their rights, as well.
I have a lot less sympathy for the 3000+ victims of 9/11 than I do for the millions of victims of US aggression and imperialism in the name of corporate expansionism.
(I saw a commercial for Southern Comfort on TBS last night and suddenly realized… you can advertise any manufactured drug you want on TV but not tobacco or marijuana… “natural” products of the earth.)
With difficult questions, there are many truths.EdRuggeroEd Ruggero, The Common Defense
Lord, protect me from what I want!PabloPicassoPablo Picasso