I’ve joked before about numerous City of Peoria projects being defended on the grounds that they’re “better than nothing.” After listening to the health care debate in the U.S. House of Representatives on C-SPAN this afternoon, I’m disheartened to hear that this has evidently become a national slogan. After several representatives expressed grave concerns about the defects of the bill, the majority party conceded that this wasn’t the best bill, but it was better than nothing.
I guess that’s what America has come to now: a nation where we aspire to the lowest common denominator, to the “good enough.” It really says something when a political party has the Presidency and both houses of Congress, that they still can’t craft a bill on which they all agree without resorting to bribes and kickbacks. Even when we have a single party in power, they still can’t do any better than “good enough” or “better than nothing.” How can this be explained other than a startling lack of character on the part of at least some legislators?
As I write this, the votes are being cast. We’ll all know within the next 10-15 minutes whether this wonderful “better than nothing” bill passed.
UPDATE: The health care bill passed in the House, 219-212. You will all be required by law to buy health insurance now.
It is amazing how much back slapping is going on when we all know it was bribery pure and simple that got this through. Let us hope that the American people will throw these bums out in November. The country can’t afford them.
What do you expect from a cowardly generation which believes that the ends always justify the means? A generation who believe that the elective elimination of an unborn human is the lesser evil than executing a serial killer?
So if your healthcare within then next decade or so is worse than it is now, as concerns treatment, then so what? At least 30 million have the same inefficient healthcare and we all have to pay the higher taxes. At that point we will all be closer to being truely equal. So is the democrat/socialist dream/delusion.
Rant on!
sperm + egg = zygote -> embryo -> fetus -> child. It isn’t a child until it leaves the womb. But don’t let science or facts get in your way.
Why are you guys upset about the richest nation in the world providing health care to its citizens? Are you afraid of healthy poor people?
The world is doomed! The Chroncile will be forced to leave the web. The sky is falling.
Actually, I am pro-choice, charlie. I don’t care if a woman decides to have her fetus aborted. I know it would be a difficult choice for most anyone. I’d want that choice if I were a woman.
But I care really, really less (much less than you probably) if a douche bag who has raped a 12 year old girl or boy and who has murdered her or him gets a lethal injection. But most liberals think executing a douch bag such as this is immoral, unethical and should keep it alive til death do us part. F*ck me! There is no equivalance.
And charlie, I am so happy you are so happy that your federal taxes will be going up over the next decade. Be sure to smile when a government entity tells you to lose 20 lbs or face a penalty or tax. At least the poor will face the same fate, right? But they won’t be able to pay the penalty. And when you need to get that broken ankle fixed, don’t be surprised when it won’t be done this following weekend but three weeks from Friday or….
Now, now. This is nothing that a nice bloody all out civil war won’t settle. I’m sure those plump soft college republicans will fare well comes to dishing out dying time. It’ll be just like on their video games.
Scary, Glen. Taxes going up? What a surprise. I don’t think that has ever happened in my lifetime.
As for your death penalty exuberance, let me just paraphrase Sister Prejean who as a Nun worked with death row inmates for years… “a person is better than the worst act of their life.”
I have had a broken knee cap for three weeks… ok? Suck it up. I’ve had enough of Doctors in my life. One botched knee surgery, Mistaken diagnosis and treatment, unnecessary treatments … I’ll stick to home health.
Elias: “It’ll be just like on their video games.”
Except these games shoot back…
kcdad,
It isn’t a child until it leaves the womb? What else could it be?
You should be rebanned from making comments based on your faulty logic.
n/t
It is either a zygote, an embryo or a fetus. These are not terms I made up. Neither is child, infant, or adult. These words have meanings. (Despite how you might want to use them)
Sorry, charlie.
You are dead wrong on this one. The names are for different stages in development. The end result is always a human being, regardless of title.
zygote=human being
embryo=human being
fetus=human being
The end result? Is a corpse. ALWAYS. Dust to dust.
Freedom lost last night. As someone said, to thunderous applause, as is usually the case. Those who fought and died for this country must be rolling over in their graves.
I actually believe abortion and the death penalty are immoral.
Mouse, puh-leese. Our founders spun themselves into cocoon over a century ago. From banks to the rise of corporations, our country has become The East India Trading Company the revolution was fought against.
That we now want to provide the same health care to everyone (even non-whites and women, who our founders neglected to count as human beings) should be a proud moment for us… but NOOOOOOOOOO… everyone is worried about the poor little richy rich insurance companies.
And Ben, you are free to believe anything you want. Morality isn’t determined by WHAT you do, but instead by WHY you do (or don’t) it.
Im sure those companies make a gazillion dollars a year and can afford to pay it right. I mean businesses dont have to make money to oporate. Do you you know the real profit percentages that those companies make or is it a case where it just must be alot because they are corporations?
Provide health care to everyone under penalty of fine, even people like you who admit to not buying it and who do not want it. Did you notice that they are saying you have to buy it so that people dont get sick and run out and take out a policy because they can no longer deny you based on preexisting conditions. That way all those corporations can make money on healthy people like you kcdad.
Man I hope the federal government someday says that everyone has to buy my product under penalty of fine.
Charlie, there is no limit as to what insurance companies can charge. Personally, I think insurance companies have been getting away with way too much for way too long, but when they fail and the govt. becomes our only insurance company, then there is not even the appearance of a watchdog for the people, and we’re totally screwed. Wake up. This isn’t about health care, it’s about govt. control – over you and me.
Two things:
First, if there’s any doubt that “Charlie” is the irrepressible kcdad, check out this link:
http://www.generalforum.com/774854-post68.html
“East India Trading Company” isn’t a term many people use.
Second,
ObamaCare’s attack on the insurance industry will only “backfire” and result in fewer insured. Why? Because it will be cheaper to pay the fine once premiums skyrocket to cover the cost of accepting customers with pre-existing conditions. The number of healthy insured will drop like a brick and the only ones left will be the unhealthy, who will be taking more than they can give. Then the Dems will declare the “free” market a failure and try to force a single-payer system on the American People. That’s the plan, folks – statists do it that way every time.
I am still trying to figure out (and I’m sure I don’t fully understand), but when we have this unique government that is for the people, by the people, and of the people–and we can vote all lawmakers out when we don’t like them–why is it that I should be afraid of government? Is there any law on the books that can’t be rescinded if enough people agree to getting rid of it? I think the real problem is that we don’t trust voters–that would be the other guy, right? After all, health care wouldn’t have passed if voters hadn’t elected a Democratic president and enough representatives to pass the legislation. Oh, David, David–do you think we haven’t all figured that out by now?
Hey Glen! You mean like the huge tax increase Reagan (R) did when he got in office? As for the death penalty, you mean like when Ryan (R) stopped the death penalty in Illinois? Too many of you people are screaming the sky is falling and FOX, Limbaugh (who should be leaving the country) and Hannity are in full lie mode. I don’t count Beck, he’s a nut.
Oh and David, when are they coming for Grandma?
Mouse, who is the government?
Hey Emtronics if this is really about everyone having the ability to buy health insurance why cant I just buy insurance when I find out I have cancer? Why is the federal government going to penalize people who choose not purchase health insurance when they are healthy? Why didnt the bill target the high deductibles that are still going to exist?
Sharon,
Our government should fear the people, but when the latest Rasmussen poll shows 54% against and 41% in favor of ObamaCare, and the U. S. House passes it anyway, its obvious they do not. Perhaps they something will change come November.
Emtronics,
It’s obvious when you’ve lost the debate. And you also make up history, so let me educate you. Reagan (and both Democrats and Republicans in Congress) passed a 25% tax cut that was implemented in three phases in 1981-1983. The Tax Reform Act of 1986 resulted in a corporate tax increase but another income tax cut. Tax rates were consolidated into four brackets.
Nobody’s comin’ for granny, Emtronics, but when the future gov’t health care plan runs outta money, they’ll say she’s too old to qualify for whatever she needs.
First, I just want to say to Elias that since I was a College Republican that in my time as member of that organization we had several members who were either active or former members of the US Armed Forces. Some who even took leaves from the organization to serve on deployment. There were no members of the College Democrats who served at the university I attended even though they had larger numbers. Not to mention that the percentage of military members who identify themselves as either Republican or conservative is significantly higher than in the general population. To put it bluntly, your comment was ignorant.
As for Sharon’s question: “why is it that I should be afraid of government?”… Um, maybe because our founders were afraid even though they were the ones that created our government. Distrust and a moderate amount of fear for government is healthy trait.
And charlie/kcdad/stalin, no one is really concerned about the “richy rich insurance companies”. We are worried about our inability to pay for quality health insurance now that we will be paying for the remaining 80% of the bill that the government isn’t going to pick up for the public option enrollees. That is until no one can afford good health insurance coverage and everyone is on the public plan and we lose the the best healthcare system in the world because providers can’t continue to offer their current level of service on the 20% of their cost that the government is willing to pay.
I mean, really we don’t have anything to worry about because the government runs Medicaid so well. I am sure they will have no problem when they increase the size of government insured several times over…
Hey guys didn’t you hear Obama says our insurance premiums are going to drop $2500 a year. I’m making plans to go to D.C. and personally thank him. It is very comforting to know that our government is looking out for us. Sure beats personal responsibilty.
David: you know as well as I do that Emtronics never lets facts influence his view of history.
You people are getting nasty.
David writes: “Why? Because it will be cheaper to pay the fine once premiums skyrocket to cover the cost of accepting customers with pre-existing conditions.”
Dave, before I rip into you..could you clarify the above statement?
I will get to the ‘Elephant Men’ [Twins no less!], David and Precinct later…
11Bravo,
Since you normally try to be civil, I simply want to point out a couple of ….[can’t find the right words here…], in your last post.
“Um, maybe because our founders were afraid even though they were the ones that created our government.”
– I am not so sure our founders were as afraid of ‘government’ as they were afraid of the ‘masses.’ You know…the uneducated, illiterate types, etc…….. I see alot of that on Peoria Chronicle…
“…and we lose the best healthcare system in the world because providers can’t continue to offer their current level of service…”
– Bravo! Do you HONESTLY believe that the U.S. still has the BEST healthcare ‘anything’ in the world?
Just getting started.
“The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first.”
“I am not a friend to a very energetic government. It is always oppressive.”
– Thomas Jefferson
And yes I do NV, it’s why everyone comes here still for the most difficult procedures, including Canadian elected officials who prefer our healthcare over that which they offer their own citizens.
The only government Thomas Jefferson knew about was the monarchy of England and worse–he had no idea how well the experiment of which he was a part would turn out. In fact, the government he helped to create was not really of the people, for the people, and by the people–because several groups were originally left out of the process: non-landowners, women, and slaves. However, he helped create a government that would eventually come closer and closer to the actual promise. I understand the need to be afraid of government, but government control of health care doesn’t make me shake in my boots. Health care in the hands of the corporations whose only interest is making money does make me nervous.
Stephen sez: “Hey Emtronics if this is really about everyone having the ability to buy health insurance why cant I just buy insurance when I find out I have cancer? ”
Because if you get cancer, as it stands today before health care reform takes effect, no insurance company will insure you unless you pay through the nose. That is why insurance companies make huge profits, not from paying medical bills.
Fact: The largest income tax increase came from Ron Reagan when he was elected President. Anyway you label it or say it was implemented, it was the largest under the Reagan watch which is where you GOP folks like to blame things except the biggest terrorist strike in US history, 9/11, under Bush’s watch which then you said he kept us safe.
I am not losing the any debate as I am not debating. As for Granny, I know she’ll be alright now no matter how old she gets. I only asked to see if David still subscribed to the Death Panels. I mean, what’s one lie when you can tell many? Fox News.
11 bravo : “The two enemies of the people are criminals and government” Thos Jefferson
There is only one enemy of the people and it is the corporation. Until you realize that, you will continue chasing your tail.
In the cases you cited, THEY are the people. The people CAN NOT be their own enemy. Corporations are artificially created entities that live for one purpose only, to make a profit. They will destroy their competition, their environment they employees, and even themselves in that pursuit. Examples? Enron. Michael Madoff. Stanford Gold and Bullion, Exxon, Coca-Cola, Monsanto, Caterpillar… more? The pornography industry, Walmart, McDonalds, Comcast (what does Comcast do, lay a cable and charge people UP THE WAZOO for other people’s content. They have gotten so bloated they just bought NBC…)
Let me tell yo what… you just keep sucking up to the corporate interests until you have no rights to anything anymore.
Emtronics,
Name the piece of legislation that supposedly raised income taxes under Reagan. I’m aware of some increases in taxes on gasoline, social security and others, however, Reagan was a net tax cutter during his eight years in office. Remember, it’s Congress that passes the legislation and the president that signs it. Remember also, the Dems controlled the House all eight years and the Senate for his last two years. Sometimes the president is forced to agree to things he doesn’t like.
But you knew that, and that we also know you’re trying to divert our attention from the unconstitutional health care “reform” bill.
“Because if you get cancer, as it stands today before health care reform takes effect, no insurance company will insure you unless you pay through the nose. That is why insurance companies make huge profits, not from paying medical bills.”
Emtronics now that the law is in effect if this is about providing healthcare why cant I wait until I have cancer then decide to take out a policy to pay for the treatment. The new law says I cant be denied due to preexisting like cancer so why does the government say I have to purchase it now or face a fine? 2-8 percent are not huge profits by the way. You pay through the nose thanks to interstate commerce laws, malpractice, fees that are passed to your insurer that are then passed to you.
Kcdad you do relize that almost anyone who goes into business at any level whether its two guys and a truck or a company with 5000 employees has some form of corporate protection?
What is your point? That corporations have gotten so far away from the original idea of charters that they are meaningless and useless to society?
I agree.
David David David… “Reagan was a net tax cutter during his eight years in office.”
Reagan was a corporate shill his entire 8 years as President… AND his entire career from Bonzo and G.E. through Death Valley Days…
No kcdad the point is that almost every business that you interact with everyday are corporations. You have obviously never been in business for yourself or you would understand the importance of corporate or LLC protection.
It seems as if this conversation has veered from the issue at hand. While health care is no doubt a hot-button issue these days, I believe CJ’s post also opined about the “better than nothing” status of government projects ranging from locally here in Peoria to the federal government.
Obviously “better than nothing” is a pretty low place to set the bar for success, but if the alternative is doing nothing until we have the means and resources to take it all out in one fell swoop, wouldn’t you rather take the small step to get the ball rolling? I’m not talking purely about health care or downtown revitalization or anything in specific here, but rather on a more macro conceptual scale.
Society should always be moving forward, yearning to make tomorrow better than today. If that means taking baby steps forward and testing the waters at every step of the way because we can’t make a Great Leap Forward (and possibly screw ourselves over if it fails), I’ll take “better than nothing” over just “nothing”.
Sharon, TJ knew the Govt. of England, which was a parliamentary monarchy. It was the British Parliament that actually did the things attributed to George III in the Declaration of Independence. Which is why the Constitution limited the power of the legislature with a strong executive and an independent judiciary, and a federal system that enumerated federal powers and left the rest to “the states and the people”. TJ wrote about the tyranny of the majority, and the problems of unbridled legislative power. Even with its protections, the Constitution would not have been ratified but for the Bill of Rights. And still, they fell short. They did not put term limits in the Constitution, or prohibit political parties (as Washington would have preferred). Politicians (not the people, charle/kcdad) run the govt., not the people. They are the enemy.
Stephen…”the importance of corporate or LLC protection”
Yes, I do understand. I firmly believe those protections are intruding on individual liberties, personal protections and the free expression of market forces. (How do you like that Adam Smith lingo?)
“Better than nothing” is the same BS that brought us “too big to fail”.
It is all the same corporate jingoism.
“I’ll take “better than nothing” over just “nothing”.” I DO agree with this sentiment.
Mouse… It was the monarchy chartered and owned East India Tea Company that ran the parliament in England. It is not very different than Goldman Sachs and other financial corporations running our government.
Mouse–I can’t argue with you on any of those points. I guess my “problem” is that in my lifetime I have never been negatively impacted by government, so it’s hard for me to respond to fear mongering.
Kcdad can you explain how me incorporating so I wont lose my business, my savings and my home thanks to a preditory customer sueing me is intruding on your liberties?
Why do you “need” to incorporate? Why will you lose your business, savings and home?
When you say “predatory” (sic) do you mean dissatisfied? Are you talking about nuisance (no-sense) suits? I am 54 years old and I have never been sued.
As to how it intrudes on my liberties… your corporation is a person with MORE liberties and rights than I have. Your corporation can commit crimes without any legal repercussions (jail) for you or any other employee. Your corporation can write off ANY expense that can be considered business related… LIKE YOUR OWN SALARY. Your corporation can buy any legislator or judge that is up for sale and deduct the expense. If your corporation earns money in more than one state it gets to choose which state (if any) it pays taxes on that income. If things get too dicey, your corporation can leave the country and exist with immunity overseas or on the internet. You, of course, can live comfortably here in the land of the free and the home of the brave while you operate your corporation some place else.
Perhaps you have no idea WHY corporations have those privileges… perhaps you should seek discover the answer to that question.
Sterling says:
That depends. I don’t consider a $900+ billion pork-laden bill (health care) a “small step” forward. I don’t consider a $6 million liability due to a failed start-up venture (Firefly Energy) a “small step” forward. And I sure as heck don’t see $37 million for a downtown hotel as a step anywhere except into massive, risky debt.
I guess my point is, I don’t believe that 90% of the things touted as “better than nothing” really are better than nothing. In many cases, I think “nothing” would have been the better option. I certainly wish Peoria owed nothing for MidTown Plaza, for instance.
Why? Because if Im sued I dont want my home and savings cleaned out so I can either A. lose in court or B. lose it all to legal fees and court costs to fight the predatory suit. I would rather lose my equipment, materials and business account so that I would still have a place to live and be able to put food on the table. I mean no-sense suits, and yes they do happen. You obviously have never had to carry business insurance or you would know all about that.
Congrates your 54, have you ever run a personal business and taken personal risk or have you always worked for someone else? Do you know the tax rate for ANY profit a corporation takes in? I have to pay myself as a salaried employee of my business just like any other employee and guess what I have to pay taxes on it just like I have to pay taxes on any other employee. So the government can tax my take home pay, I pay the withholdings on my employees income and then turn around and pay a ridiculously high rate of tax on any additional money my corporation makes, that seems fair. Im sure any legislator or judge who is up for sale would be more then willing to take your money kcdad and then you could call it a political contribution. If you incorporate in one state and oporate in another there are fines and fees.
The last line is true but who cares? My field it is impossbile to do this but ok I see a small glimmer of a point there. I run a business to make money. Its my job its not my moral obligation to employ people
Perhaps you should run your business legitimately and justly so no one wants to sue you. Or are you just a coward?
Would you prefer that corporations do whatever they want and not have legal repercussions for the decision makers? Exxon? Enron? Monsanto? The chemical plant in India… what was it? Coca Cola in South America? Sure, you can sue the corporation but go against millions of dollars worth of attorneys and then the corporation can declare bankruptcy… you can’t sue the decision makers. Anyone successfully sue a corporation? Oh yeah… Julia Roberts as Erin Brockovich. Did the people who decided to allow the pollutants into the water get arrested, or sued… nope. THEY weren’t responsible, the corporation did it.
Your cowardice aside, what benefit to society is your business going to be to society to deserve this special treatment? Hospital? School? Porn shop?
“I run a business to make money.”
That’s NOT why corporate charters were created. Rather than seeking government protections to achieve that goal, you should just build a better mousetrap.
“$900+ billion pork-laden bill”
Really? What do you consider to be pork in the bill?
Where did you get the 900 billion figure?
Perhaps you should attempt to run a business and then you would have a better idea of what your talking about instead of being an armchair quarterback. I do run a legitimate business and have yet to face any legal actions, however I understand that there are people who are not as honest as I am so I properally organized my company to protect myself.
No kcdad Im not a coward Im protecting myself from people sueing me for no reason and me losing everything I have trying to pay court costs. There are bad people who run bad corporations and get away with things just like there are bad people who sue just because they think there is something to be had. You list a handful of easy examples where corporations made bad decisions but you fail to mention that thousands of corporations practice good business. Once again you throw personal insults instead of proving a point.
I am impressed though you dont meet many people who call self employed, small business owners cowards.
I run a business, it is called my life. Tell how it is any different than trying to make money in your business?
Do you want to make a list of “good” corporations and why the government, that is the the people, should grant them special benefits that small artisans and moms and pops can’t share?
Can you tell me why a porno producer can reap the same social benefits of corporate protection as say… Proctor Hospital?