52 thoughts on “Cat: How can we not do business with countries that abuse human rights?”

1. This is why this country is in the shape it is in. CAT isn’t the only company that looks the other way for profits. It’s big business and greed. It used to be workers were important, wages need to be maintain so people can buy homes and support families. This ideal didn’t come from CEO’s or Presidents of companies. It came about when workers organized, formed Unions and made companies play fare and pay a decent wage. Now, the Right, the home of big business has over the years spewed that no American company can survive unless we are overseas. Really? There is no reason that a company like CAT couldn’t build all it’s equipment here, with union labor paying living wages, supporting America. Any company could do this. Sure, their CEOs wouldn’t make the huge millions they make now, but they would be rich by any standard in the world non the less and we here would have jobs.
   Nope, politicians and CEO seeking profits under the guise that the stockholder must be paid look the other way, sell off American jobs to countries like China who hire people to do the work for $12 a week. The Teabaggers want their country back, the Republicans want less Government interference so they sell their souls for a buck, and the Democrats couldn’t come up with a good idea if you held a gun to their heads. Instead, the Dems piss a little money towards the poor and then take their turn in line at the profits the rest are taking in despite the fact we are dealing with the Devil himself when it comes to China. There will come a day when the Chinese will cash in and we here in America will be the 3rd world nation paying $6 or more for gasoline a gallon, supermarkets that aren’t supplied to keep up with demand, high prices on every food staple we have if you can find it, even though we grow more corn and grains than anywhere in the world. It’ll be interesting but I am glad I won’t have to live long through it, but our younger generations will. So, go on, play the slots, charge that TV, buy that huge pickup even though the only thing you ever hauled was your spouses butt, wave the flag, support our troops, because it’s too late to get our country back. That’s what these political hacks want you to do. Be distracted while they rape the country’s finances again and again to benefit the top 1%. We are doomed unless somebody wakes up in corporate America and starts to think of America first again. Naw, they got theirs, tough on everyone else.

2. I agree with much of what Emtronics wrote (gasp!), its a pity he has to insert the anti-business propaganda. Greed is a human condition, businesspeople are not the only ones affected. I’ll bet a lot of you anti-business, pro-union types regularly go to Walmart and buy Chinese-made stuff. Do you even check where it’s made, or do you just buy the cheapest product you can find? That’s no better than what CAT does, whether you want to admit it or not. I have told sales people that I don’t want to buy Chinese-made products. Some agree, and some look at me like I’m crazy. Whatever. The dollers you give Hu today, may buy the missile he fires at Peoria tomorrow. Think about it, Mr. Oberhelman, nuclear missiles don’t care if you’re the CEO, they are equal opportunity killers.

3. Mouse, I’m not anti-business by a long shot. I guess I am being a bit unrealistic in that I believe that American companies should think America first, American workers, and what’s best for our country. Unions of the 30’s brought about decent wages and working conditions that were prevalent in this country back then like those in China today. Didn’t like working 12 hr days? The boss didn’t like you? You were fired. It was Unions that mad e a more level playing field and allowed wages to buy homes, cars, ice boxes etc etc. Yes greed plays into both sides. Hoffa with the Teamsters and the corruption throughout some Unions today. Heck, I suspect my own Union of being corrupt sometimes. Still, it’s the huge bonuses and salaries paid to CEOs and their assistants that are out of control compared to the average rise in blue collar wages over the last 20 years. Does a person really need $40 million a year to live on? Really? My latest and most likely my last raise was 1.3% of my yearly salary which bumped me into the next tax bracket and I took home $8 less. That is what’s wrong. Not many decent jobs here anymore and no waitress (or waiter)is going to run out to Uftring’s after work and by a $25,000 car nor or they likely to buy a house anytime soon.
   As for buying Chinese or not, well that is darn hard to do. I bought all the parts for my computer from various online computer sites. Newegg as an example. The motherboard, video card, RAM, all made in China. I seldom go to Wal-Mart but how can you blame people for trying to buy the most with what they have to spend? It gets to a point where when blue collar wages are stagnant like they have been for the past 5 years, your dollar is worth less and less. It’s a double edged sword.

4. Emtronics I agree with your comment totally.

5. China is no more an enemy to the USA than Mexico. Freedom of speech, labor and environmental laws are also non-existent in Mexico. Why else would 30 million of those people sneak into the USA. And yet no one talks about the human rights violations happening down in good old Mexicanistan. Why is that?

   Stop importing from China, and another turd world country would take its place. Mexico? India? Vietnam?

6. So what’s your solution to the problem, guys? Should Caterpillar unilaterally end all sales to China? Discontinue all manufacturing and parts support over there? Some of you might actually feel good about yourselves if you said, “yes,” but as a direct consequence, hundreds, if not thousands, of U. S. employees would lose their jobs.

   Today’s CEOs have inherited corporations with long-time business ties in China. You can’t just undo that so easily. And if you’re already there, you have to grow your business to stay in the game. China’s move toward economic freedom mirrors the start of normalized diplomatic relations with the U. S. in 1979. Do we want to reverse this and start a new Cold War?

   American corporations believe human rights issues are best left up to governments. You can argue the morality of that, but keep this in mind: modern China is better off today than the bad old days of diplomatic isolation. You know, the Great Leap Forward in 1958-1961 during which 36-45 million died of starvation because no one would say no to Mao’s abominable agricultural policies. Or the “cultural revolution” of 1966-1976 during which Mao tried to stamp out any free market thinking (the revolution ended because he died). Thousands died from murder and suicide as a result.

   If you think China’s human rights record is bad now, look at the past, before we did business there.

7. Clearly more open trade with the rest of the world will be a good influence upon China. As they must interact with many other nations, their human rights abuses will fall under greater scrutiny. Things will get better there.

   What troubles me most is how easily American corps have caved to the China/Walmart paradigm.

   When I’ve argued that L.R. Nelson didn’t have to send its jobs to China I was told: “get real, they have to meet Walmart’s price demands.”

   I suggested that perhaps they should change their model. Create a higher-end product that would be sold in local hardware stores instead of at Walmart.

   Dream on, I was told. People want to buy cheap shit sprinklers in the spring, and replace them in August, and buy new ones the next spring. We are cyclic consumers who don’t care how we waste our resources, our money, or exploit workers.

   Probably too true.

8. Well I guess one couldn’t really expect CAT to withdraw from China but I would at least expect CAT to think America first and maybe hire back laid off American workers first before dropping everything and doing it all in China. With all this business hardly anyone around here is getting a call back to work.

9. C.J., it is only because of foreign investment that the standard of living of the working-class Chinese is rising at such an astonishing pace. There is no greater enemy to an oppressive government than an empowered and educated populace. Therefore, anyone opposed to the abuse of human rights in China should celebrate the economic growth of China, which is fueled by the increased presence of Caterpillar and other foreign investors. Argued the other way, the absence of foreign investment would only ensure the status quo, which you so rightfully and passionately condemn.

   I know I’m veering off topic, but Em, you seem blind to the fact that your protectionist and big-union, big-government ideas were a reality for too long, and resulted in an unsustainable economy that is still now collapsing under the weight of its overhead. If Greece, Ireland, Spain, and other bankrupt countries seem too far away to be real for you, just look at California and Illinois. One of the principal reasons the system broke is because you can’t set up the civil servants to be the haves and the people paying for them the have-nots. The decision by Illinois Democrats to increase taxes was a desperate and dying gasp that will only perpetuate the current death spiral. We’re bankrupt so we’re going to do more of the same things that made us so? Unbelievable. I guarantee you that there will be more and more talk of creating some mechanism to allow for state bankruptcies and Illinois will be at the head of the line.

   Yes, “(t)he Teabaggers want their country back, the Republicans want less Government interference…” Count me among them. The beauty is, this is no longer merely an academic debate. Your way is being played out in Illinois and mine in New Jersey. Pat Quinn or Chris Christie? I know where my money is.

   As to your fear that China will cash in some day, I’m sure you were among the folks who said the same thing about Japan in the 80s. How did that work out for ’em? Yes, we need to quit borrowing money from China, but that belongs more in an argument supporting the expansion of American businesses there than it does in one against.

10. nontimendum” Obviously you are of the Right minded. You take me to task for saying someday China will cash in. Well, about the Right always saying that each of us owe $X amount to the national debt? Will the FED show up on my door demanding a check?

    Again you twisted my words. Never did I say I was for BIG UNION. Another Right word phrase used to scare the masses. I said that Unions had their place in our society but like the greedy politicians they too have become corrupt and I guess BIG. Still without them early on, we would have what the Republicans seem to want now. The Rich and the Surfs. Still no CEO, Pro athlete, movie star, even a City Manager works without a contract so why would you expect employees to trust a company and work without a contract? Unions have their place and are needed.

    Comparing Japan of the 80s to China today is apples and oranges. In those days, one could easily find products NOT made in Japan. Today, it is really tough to find items like clothing, computers, American flags that are not made in China. The fact that we have over 3000 Wal-Marts attest to the fact that China will never bomb us (like Japan) because they have set up their base here to distribute their cheap junk. Why kill that?

    Illinois is not the only State suffering economic melt down. I do believe there are 46 other states just as in bad shape as Illinois. In those states 17% of what they spend is on things like basic services etc etc. The rest is spent on pension funds and it isn’t always for the plain ol civil servant. It use usually for the well heeled politician who serves in the State House or for the upper management positions like Comptrollers, Treasures etc etc. The state worker, the one who drives the snow plow or pounds on the streets usually gets barely enough to survive for retirement. Police unions and fire unions have held the pension plans hostage for years. I don’t decry police/fire decent retirements, just the public can no longer afford to keep them and that’s because of years and years of gives by both Dems and Republicans.

    As for Teabaggers wanting there country back, where did our country go exactly? It was the Conservative laws (the GOP repealed laws, or let expire laws, for extended clips, machine guns) that allowed a nut job to get a gun in the first place. People are always pointing at the Second Amendment as a right to bear arms but if read and looking back, the amendment was really written for the protection of people in wilderness places where one needed a gun to protect themselves. In other words, it’s 3 centuries old and needs to be re-written.

    All this plays into what’s wrong in this country. I hope Americans have the same guts and fortitude to pull ourselves up and get out of this mess like we did in WW2. As long as people go to Presidential or political speeches with a gun strapped to their hip, we will always revert to the past.

11. Emtronics wrote: …I would at least expect CAT to think America first and maybe hire back laid off American workers first before dropping everything and doing it all in China. With all this business hardly anyone around here is getting a call back to work.

    Uh…Caterpillar did recall its laidoff workers here. A lot of it has to do with export sales of its largest tractors (D9T’s, D10T’s and D11T’s are only made in East Peoria) to – where else? – China.

    In other words, it’s 3 centuries old and needs to be re-written.

    Wow…

12. Gee Dave, it’s only an amendment. The founding fathers had no idea we would have nut cases with weapons that hold 30 rounds or more or would show up to political gathers with a gun on their hip.

13. Emtronics,

    Amended to obliterate one of our basic rights? I don’t think so. The 2nd Amendment prevents tyranny. The number of rounds is irrelevant.

    Back to China.

14. Ok Just my opinion. Read the 2nd and tell me where it says I can as an individual pack a gun. It’s kind of vague. BTW, I never advocate getting rid of the 2nd, just clarifying it.

15. Please take time to learn about the 2nd Amendment and its origin.
    “Section 13. Militia; standing armies; military subordinate to civil power.

    That a well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defense of a free state, therefore, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; that standing armies, in time of peace, should be avoided as dangerous to liberty; and that in all cases the military should be under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power.”
    Written by Thos Jefferson and George Mason PRIOR to the Constitution of The United States, it is the foundation for the 2nd Amendment:
    “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

    Note: the right to bear arms is directly related to the maintaining of a militia and participation in said militia (in lieu of a standing army).

    Any argument that the intent was a population of armed vigilantes or to protect the people from the government is unfounded and indefensible.

16. Charlie: In your word….DING!

17. Unfortunately the Supreme Court disagrees with Charlie’s interpretation. For better or worse the 2nd Amendment is now an individual right.

18. Why then can’t I pack a weapon here in Illinois? Like going to Kroger’s or something.

19. The Scotus decision wasn’t about conceal carry per se. It was about collective rights versus individual rights. It could affect conceal carry but follow up cases will have to present themselves and be ruled upon before you can walk into Kroger toting one based on Judicial fiat.

20. We buy BILLIONS of barrels of oil from countries who treat women as mere chattel and who use the revenue to appease terrorists.

    That being said, all of that commerce and resultant development eventually tend to undermine the dictators who try and control it.

    In that regard, China, Russia and even Saudi Arabia with whom we have had fairly open trade have increasingly modernized their economies which has provided information access to a growing middle class. Meanwhile, countries like Cuba with whom we have not had the same level of trade, their dictators have been able to maintain a greater control over their populations, in large part due to the limitation of resources. Then we have Mexico, where they have an oligarchic controlled, socialist democracy that is falling apart despite NAFTA. I would opine that Mexico is different in large part because those Mexicans who have most valued economic improvement and freedom have crossed the border into the United States creating an East/West Germany vacuum like effect of committed producers and libertarians moving from the Southern side of the Rio Grande to the Northern side. Further exacerbating this is the bloated welfare class in Mexico that is living off of transfer payments from U.S. relatives.

    Accordingly, (in normal trade relations without the decimating of the societal structure by immigration) there is an argument for trade which is to the material wealth benefit of ourselves and the other country in that a rising tide of GNP lifts the cause of social freedom. Again, looking at the Arab states, the revolutions are coming where the population is educated and has access to media technology (as they do in China) but where the young people do not have access to jobs and the bureaucracy is controlling their ability to create jobs for themselves.

    Conversely the RULING POLITICAL CLASS in China is absolutely and completely concerned with keeping their masses employed. For decades the Chinese man in the street had no freedom and no bread. Now the average Chinese man in the street has at least a half a loaf of bread a cellphone and a twitter account from which he can complain about his half loaf.

    Far better to Caterpillar to trade with China thereby keeping the Chinese masses employed and fed so that they can some day enjoy such rights than to pull out support of the economy, resulting in unemployment and deprivation that will guarantee unrest and death, without any reasonable probability that the uprising masses would not be crushed by those in China who would be fed from the limited resources – the Chinese Military.

21. I side with Caterpillar 99% sad as China is. C.j., I’m glad I’m able to delete some of the “know very little” commentors like Democrat and union man Emtronics from my site. If the man read something besides union propaganda he would have an idea what is going on and why you do business with people you often times do not really want to do business with.
    Didn’t Obama and the Demos just lay out the Red Carpet to China?

    Bring jobs back. What an idealistic totally impractical solution to stop other countries from taking all export business from U.S. national firms who export or build factories in other countries just like they build here. Most, like Caterpillar employ union labor. If China ever did stop doing business with the U.S. buyer, prices of ordinary commodities would skyrocket.

    I might remind eveyone that the U.S, has the highest per capita number of its citizens incarecerated. It appears we have some tremendous problems in our “free” country.

    If I ever move again it will be to a right to work state where most of the new factories are being built and where Caterpillar is moving some manufacturing to these RTW states.

    Don’t like anything that Cat does? Take your fat pensions and move.

22. I would be happy if corporations like CAT would get nailed for setting up [offshore] tax haven subsidiaries. Lets face it people, we all know Corporate America is the real enemy here, and of course special interest lobbyists. Lets not forget our politicians who are led around like puppies by the first two [no insult to puppies intended].

    We can all thank Citibank for costing the average taxpayer billions…in more ways than one. I think we are experiencing our own ‘human rights’ violations right here at home.

23. Mr. Widmer, you use “Democrat” and “union man” like they’re dirty words, and you admit to censoring comments from your blog simply because you don’t agree with them politically. Sounds like Chinese politics suit you just fine.

    That said, I have to agree with DP Jordan’s first post. He does a very good job of summing up the reasons to stay engaged with China. The Chinese generation in power now looks back at the horrors of the Cultural Revolution and idolizes Deng Xiaoping for pulling them out of that morass. They see their lives as a thousand times better than they were 20-30 years ago. Go to China, tell the vast majority of Chinese that they’re oppressed, and they’ll laugh in your face.

    Their children & grandchildren won’t have that deeply ingrained memory of the Cultural Revolution, and the 8-9% growth rate that’s currently buying off the happiness of the Chinese people with jobs and new luxuries can’t go on forever. An inevitable political reckoning will come when one or more sectors of the Chinese economy implode like ours did in 2008.

    It’s right and good to be horrified and disgusted by what the Chinese government does to their people. However, the trick is doing something about it that won’t make things ten times worse. Antagonizing the Chinese government will only empower the xenophobic elements in their society, INCREASE the repression of the Chinese people, and accelerate their military build up.

    The best option, IMO, is to continue to shine a light on their excesses as they occur. In other words, publicly embarrass & humiliate them. Status and “face” are important facets of Chinese culture & society, and public embarrassment can be powerful motivation for political change. Public embarrassments over toxic baby formula and lead in toys lead to the arrest of corrupt officials and improvements in quality & safety. Public embarrassments over extreme pollution from Chinese factories and gridlock & pollution from automotive traffic in Beijing around the time of the 2008 Summer Olympics resulted in the Chinese government poring BILLIONS of dollars into the development of public transportation networks and green technologies. Embarrassing the Chinese government works without setting off a war – trade, cold, or hot, take your pick.

    We should also try to set a good example in our own house. We can’t criticize the Chinese for torturing prisoners when we do it ourselves (Abu Ghraib). We can’t criticize the Chinese for indefinite imprisonment when we do it ourselves (Gitmo). We can’t criticize the Chinese for repressing minorities when we do it ourselves (Arizona SB 1070, repressive policies toward First Nations that keep the poverty levels on American Indian Reservations at levels rivaling the most destitute nations on Earth). We can’t criticize Chinese censorship if we edit out opposing political viewpoints from the commentary on our blogs (Merle Widmer).

24. Merle, I’ve noticed you’ve stopped your whining about the price of Cat stock.

    And of course Obama rolled out the red carpet for China, that’s our landlord.

25. I like the way Widmer slams me as a “Union” and Democrat man. I guess when Widmer isn’t out yelling at kids to get off his lawn he is deleting any opinion from his blog he doesn’t like. Widmer is the prime example of CEO type Republican that just because he could sell overpriced office furniture under the guise that it’s quality is better and pay his staff near nothing, firing them when his profit margin dropped, doesn’t make him all bad. Notice how Widmer didn’t take on CJ who feels China is an oppressive regime locking up people for simply disagreeing with the government, that maybe CAT shouldn’t be so quick to jump in lock stock and barrel. Simply for profit I might add, the kind of thing Widmer understands. Not employing people here in America or paying them a decent wage (which CAT has done for years here) is how Widmer sees business. We all have opinions on this and it’s OK if you disagree with mine but we all have buttholes too, we got Widmer.

    Disclaimer: I am not comparing Mr Widmer to a butthole unless of course you think I am which I think I’m not. Widmer is entitled to his point of view and I reserve the right to avoid his blog and his blotted outdated opinions if I choose.

    Matthew: Great post! Also someone here pointed out that as China became more and more modernized, their people may rise up and effect change in China.

    By the Widmer, my company would have no way paid me what I have gotten over the years if it hadn’t been for the union. Back in 1971, postal carriers qualified for food stamps.

26. Matthew,

    I was with you until your last paragraph. Typical liberal moral equivalence without any factual basis. Abu Graib was in spite of U. S. policy, and the soldiers were punished for it. As for Gitmo, unlawful combatants ought to be glad they were not executed on the battlefield. If only the folks in Bangladesh could get three meals a day. Finally, we DO NOT repress minorities. That’s blatantly false and you know it.

27. “As for Gitmo, unlawful combatants ought to be glad they were not executed on the battlefield”

    And how about the unlawful detainees?
    What should they be glad about? The Constitution?

28. David: I’d laugh if it wasn’t so pathetic. Yes those prisoners at Gitmo should be grateful they were not executed. Gee. Abu Graib was the fault of the Bush Administration and most likely from orders from Cheney himself. They didn’t have the moral fortitude to take responsibility for it so the soldiers got the blame and the punishment for it. You talk of liberal moral equivalence? How about Conservative morals? Oh, they have none.

29. I like how Merle mentions that we have the highest number of citizens imprisoned per capita. Surely it can’t be because those folks did anything wrong, could it? Must be something wrong with the system…maybe you should go complain to the cops about how crappy a job they do, putting away so many people in our country, and see how much they like your opinion.

    So, exactly why is it that you do business with people you don’t really want to do business with, Merle? Of course we all know why…What a double standard!…You whine about how the unions apparently are only fixated on money, but you admit that you have to do business with detestable people to…yep…make gobs of money. Lovely. Try not to choke on the foot you just put in your mouth.

    The whole “China has a horrible human rights record, oh my God, what ever shall we do?” subject comes up any time anyone in government or media talks about trade, and has since the early 1970’s after Nixon made his historic trip. What do we do every time?…complain about how evil they are…and then continue trading even more.

    Want to make China fix their human rights situation? Stop sending them the food we grow.

30. Charlie,

    Terrorists captured in Afghanistan, Iraq and other theatres do not have constitutional rights. Nor should they. Protections under the Geneva Convention should also be denied. I say get on with the military tribunals.

    Emtronics,

    The usual “Bush and Cheney” slur, huh? I guess you didn’t listen to Pres. Obama’s call for civility, huh? 🙂

31. DPJ – Abu Ghraib occurred because there was a permissive culture with respect to treatment of detainees that went up to the HIGHEST levels of the Bush administration – Rumsfeld, Cheney, & George II himself. Do you not remember the torture memos produced by Yoo & Bybee? Did you forget all the hemming & hawing from the Bush crowd about how waterboarding isn’t torture (when we prosecuted our enemies for doing it to our soldiers during WWII)? Did it slip your mind that the Bush administrations ordered renditions on minimal evidence to countries like Syria & Jordan & Morocco where practices that even Dick Cheney, the Dark Lord of the Sith himself, would consider torture are standard procedure? Convenient selective memory loss.

    As for not repressing minorities – ohhh my. The kindest response I can make to that is that I guess we have a very different idea of what constitutes “repression.”

    Gitmo prisoners are lucky they weren’t executed on the battlefield? Again – ohhh my. I don’t have any doubt that waterboarding is torture, although I know that some contend it is not. Those folks are clearly wrong, but OK … there’s maybe a slight hint of gray there. Battlefield execution, however – there’s no doubt on that, David. By any sane man’s definition, summary execution is a war crime. WTF?

    The problem with saying that “terrorists” don’t have any rights is this – who decides if someone is a terrorist? A local elder in Afghanistan gathers his clan together & attacks a U.S. patrol because a Predator drone reduced his home to rubble, killing his wife & several children. He’s a terrorist? The term is being applied to EVERYONE that shoots at us in Iraq & Afghanistan. It’s ridiculous! We are an occupying foreign army. That elder may have been one of the folks that the Reagan administration called a freedom fighter when he did the SAME THING for the SAME REASONS against the Soviet army.

    David, the United States is a great country because it is founded on a set of IDEAS, not tribal affiliation or ethnic identity or religious identity (despite what some may think) or geographic boundaries. Those ideas are so powerful because they are UNIVERSAL TRUTHS. “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights.” That sentence ring any bells? If we say that the most basic human rights are tribal privileges exclusive to American citizens, it demeans us all. We’re no longer special. We’re just another tribe among many, looking out for #1.

    Sorry C.J. … I know this is way off topic.

32. Matthew,

    It’s sad but hardly a surprise how concern over China’s human rights record turns into a left-wing, hate-America festival of moral equivalence. Enough said.

33. Why is it when the Left reminds the Right of all the idiotic things that have happened in the past that have either directly or indirectly caused the problems we face today, the Right says we are un-American?
    We torured, we were lied to by the highest office in the land and led into a needless war, our retirements and savings were stolen from us during the banking failure, the biggest in history all under the watch of the GOP and Bush.
    I too, love this country and don’t think we should be holding people without due process according to our laws and values. We shouldn’t be torturing people even in 3rd party countries. Who exactly says a terrorist is a terrorist? I hope someone someday doesn’t point a finger at David Jordan and say he’s a terrorist because if that happens, your Rights went out the door. You may laugh, but it can happen.
    As for the “usual Bush-Cheney slur” as Jordan calls it. Yes, I believe Bush and Cheney should be arrested and tried for their crimes against this country.

    BTW, Jordan, you talk of Obama and civility? Your pal Boehner had his office sending out hate emails during the SOTU address. Talk about back stabbing.

34. David, david, david…
    “do not have constitutional rights”

    EVERYONE has Constitutional rights. Have you read this statement written by Thos Jefferson?

    “We hold these truths to be self evident that ALL NATURALIZED, AMERICAN CITIZENS WITH INCOMES OVER $19,875 are created equal. That they are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights.”

35. Matthew… excellent post.

36. SOTU address sounds a lot like STFU address. How appropriate. 😉

37. Mathew,

    Not sure about your claim that “We [U.S.] are an occupying foreign army.” In both countries, we are there by request of the legitimate governments currently in power. I am, of course, speaking of the present. I understand how & why we ended up there in the first place…is up for debate…!

    I have never seen such an interesting series of posts. Its as if everyone agrees with each other…to a point, then want to crucify one another because of it.

    So far as anybody’s RIGHTS…? You have what those who hold power tell you you have, nothing more.

38. Emtronics,

    Please turn off MSNBC.

    Charlie,

    The Preamble to the U. S. Constitution is the basis for the Bill of Rights. However; the framers, newly liberated from British rule, could only apply it Americans, not to all men. To do so would have required us to conquer the world over. We didn’t, but those with differing ideologies attempted it. These include Adolf Hitler and also your comrades in the old Soviet Union. 🙂

39. David, does might = right? Is that you are claiming?

    You agree with that John Bircher, New Voice, that you only have the rights those power say you have?

    Do you believe there is no such thing as human rights?

    Do you not believe in inalienable rights?

40. David: Since Olbermann left, I don’t watch MSNBC and then only for the “Worst Persons” segment. You might have fit right in on that.

41. Emtronics,

    You watch KO for his “Worst Persons” segment???? Seriously????

    charlie,

    Not sure where your question came from.

42. Charlie,

    Human rights?

    Inalienable rights?

    I believe you forgot one…?

43. It came from here: “could only apply it Americans, not to all men.”

    Rights aren’t ‘applied’, they are either respected and defended, or they are trampled on.

    And you, New Voice… does your husband know you are on the computer, again?

    Which “rights” did I leave off? Civil? Women’s? Gay? Animal? Clistmas Rights?

44. God given rights…?

45. God-given rights–what are those? For most of mankind’s history, governments have withheld many (sometimes all) rights from most humanbeings. I believe the Bible makes very clear that God wants rulers to give their people freedom, etc. (one example, “Let my people go” message to Pharoh). However, I believe God left it up to mankind to do the right thing–and we know how that has often worked out. The United States was founded on that idea–but even the U.S. withheld rights from a whole group of people for way too long–I don’t believe God was pleased.

46. There you go………..

47. “We’re no longer special. We’re just another tribe among many, looking out for #1.”

    Who ever said we are any more that that. We havent been around long enough to be any more then that.

48. Charlie,

    To apply U. S. Constitutional rights to non-American citizens, their countries would have to ratify the document as their own. I don’t see that happening. Likewise, other nations’ constitutions do not apply to Americans.

49. You guys are great!

    When I get out of prison I hope we can all meet for a beer.

50. Rights are rights… inalienable rights means just that.

    That some governments choose to ignore human rights is what governments are all about.

    ALL men are created equal, AND THEY ARE ENDOWED BY THEIR CREATOR WITH CERTAIN INALIENABLE RIGHTS… WHETHER OR NOT THEIR GOVERNMENT’S RECOGNIZE IT.
    Read the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights if you want a good cry.

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