Back in April when the District 150 Board of Education decided to discontinue live broadcasts of the board meetings, they presented it as a cost-saving measure. I had this to say:
In other words, this move has little to do with cost savings. It’s simply a further manifestation of the district’s desire to minimize, if not eliminate, public input and public access to the school board meetings.
Last night, board members admitted that was indeed the case. From Peoria Story:
Board members acknowledged that the reason they stopped the broadcasts was not, as was initially reported, to save money, but because they objected to negative comments from the public during the public comment portion of the meeting. “It (the money) was never my reason,” Jim Stowell said. “Nor mine,” board president Debbie Wolfmeyer said.
And the Journal Star adds these quotes:
“. . . The board has tried, but I think the board has the responsibility to try to shape the message they want to convey to the public. . . . I’ve heard the same four people at 70 percent of those meetings. . . . and I doubt that very few of them, if any, have any children in the district.” . . .
“I was in favor of taking the broadcast off until we could do something about how to answer people or how to tell our own story – we don’t answer people or questions or rebut anything, so all the public really hear is what other people are saying,” board member Martha Ross said, wanting to revisit the idea because community members have asked her to do so. “It’s their only connection to what’s going on at the school district.”
I would submit that these board members don’t quite understand the concept of petitioning the government for redress of grievances. They think they should get to take our money and feed us back a message they “shape” and “want to convey to the public.” All dissenting opinions should be censored or effectively hidden from the public.
No, I estimated at least 8 hours day. Will you not at least give me that?
Average Teacher — I’m sure you personally do work 8 hours or more a day. But you said, “Let us pretend that I am a teacher who never takes work home.” Given that the teachers’ contractual work day is 6.5 hours, I think you have to figure the salary based on that.
OK, then that is what I said and I will stay true to my word. Is that too much to teach?
Sharon, I am not “average teacher”. I only go by one name unlike others here.
I remember the rich contract as being when Royster was in power. if not, I apologize.
That said, I think society should pay teachers well. I don’t begrudge them what they make.
150 observor–I’m glad to hear that you appreciate the work of teachers. The contract was in 2,000; Royster didn’t come until 2002 or 2003. I thought maybe you were 150 History.
Thanks for the info Sharon.
I appreciate teachers too! I would just like to know what that contract did to benefit students or taxpayers……isn’t it now the “starting point” for all negotiations? Wasn’t it the beginning of the Wacky workdays that cut student learning time in the classroom? Oh, but it was the only “good” contract. All about the students?…….?
You want to help students? Teachers should be paid well enough to attract good ones.
“You want to help students? Teachers should be paid well enough to attract good ones.”
so, dist 150 teachers are not paid well enough, and because of that, the district is full of bad teachers? interesting.
ok, alot of things are finally starting to make sense now.
history 150, why don’t you start with an hourly salary that you think I should be paid. We have established that the absolute highest that I could be paid hourly according to the contract is $41.53. What would you pay a ten year veteran teacher?
Average Teacher-How many jobs do you know a college graduate right out of school can find working 180 days out of 360, 6.5 hours per day and make $31,087 (from D150 teacher salary schedule for 1st year teacher with a bachelor degree and no extra hours beginning in 2009) annually? And then tell the administration they only have to stay for a “one-hour” staff meeting each month or will have to be paid…
big-n-italian, you have made a logic error and that is why things don’t always make sense to you. You used a false premise that nobody on here is claiming. If anything people are claiming the opposite only. Your statement should read,
so, dist 150 teachers are paid too well, and because of that, the district is full of great teachers? interesting.
ok, alot of things are finally starting to make sense now.
list, I have never done any other job after college, so I have no idea of any other job salary. I do not research other jobs. Why don’t we work the other way and you tell me a more valuable job and tell me what they start out with. I am not being flip, but I have never asked my friends what they make.
I have no idea how much a teacher “should” get paid, or what kind of salary teachers are “worth.” In fact, I don’t think I could answer that question about any job, let alone teachers.
I’ll ask a different question. Do you think any salary is too high for a teacher? Given the importance of education, and the relative unimportance of professional sports, one could make the argument that teachers should make more than professional athletes. So, should teachers demand millions per teacher in the next contract?
Or, let me ask it this way. Suppose there’s no precedent for teacher salaries, and you’re establishing a new public school. How do you think teacher salaries should be determined?
C.J. I understand what you are doing and I appreciate it, but this is not the argumant of my choosing. I only know that after reading the blogs and the pjstar article comments that many people in society think I am overpaid, so I am trying to get THEM to tell me what they think I am worth. I know what I think I am worth. I get paid the amount that I think that I am worth. If I wasn’t, then I would find a new job that pays me what I am worth. I am not worth a million, because no teacher gets paid that. I am kind of a free market/free country guy.
I would not mind working for a lower salary IF:
I was treated with respect by my students/parents and my bosses
Was occasionally given a “pat on the back” for a job well done
Encouraged to “try new and innovative things”, instead of TOLD this is what you will teach
Supported by the community at-large instead of being told, hey, you only “work” 9 months a year and make a butt load of money…..
If teachers are held in high esteem then education will be treated with the utmost importance.
The intangibles are great, but I don’t want the public to believe that we would be happy teaching as volunteers either. A teacher can be dedicated and still be paid well. Like C.J., I really don’t know how much a teacher should be paid. Like Average Teacher, teaching was the only job I had as a college grad (except for 6 months at the Peoria Public Library), so I don’t know how to compare my salary to that of others with comparable education, experience, and responsibility. Our salaries are public knowledge. We don’t know how much the rest of you earn and what your qualifications are, etc. Therefore, we are at a disadvantage in this discussion.
P.S.–I’m trying to figure out why I allowed myself to get involved in this topic once again–it is futile. It is what it is. Besides it doesn’t relate directly to the post C.J. started (except it did come up as one of the “mistakes” 150 made in the 2000 contract). So the topic was on someone’s list.
“I have no idea how much a teacher “should” get paid”
Can anyone tell me how much ANYONE should be paid? Isn’t that merely a function of the invisible hand of free markets?
List, how many teachers work only 6.5 hours per day? Does that include coming in early, staying late, working at night, working during lunch hour? How about taking work home to do on the weekends, attending meetings in the summer, getting class rooms ready, etc? I am not a teacher but have yet to see a high school teacher who doesn’t work under 50 hours a week. Also how many of you are willing to spend an average of $30 or more a month on supplies for the students as very few bring in their own supplies. or purchase food so students can eat breakfast, lunch or snacks. Not all are on freebies and these students might not eat if not for the teacher. And the disrespect and etc. they have to put up with from students! Teachers are definitely worth every penny they make. I had the same mindset some of you do until I worked in a school and saw exactly what goes on. Instead of griping about their pay, each one of you needs to spend one month in a school setting. I am sure many of you wouldn’t last a week.
I don’t know, cttsp5, I have substituted for lots of teachers and watched lots of teachers work… and there are a lot out there that aren’t spending any extra time or money on their classes… they are spending all of their time wondering why no one respects them and the kids don’t want to learn and then going home and complaining about the state of schools today, and how tough teachers have it.
Admittedly there are many that are trying to teach, but unfortunately, many of the latter have been taught, or mentored by the former. The problem goes back to the teacher training programs… based on outdated behavioral psychology principles, those teaching methods are about training not educating… no one wants to be trained.
So back to the question, how much should teachers get paid. (As if there should be one rate of pay for all teachers regardless of their classes, students or abilities… right?) How much? NOTHING. Teacher s should be willing to teach for free, and then get paid per student, per student/parent review, you know… like for tips.
If a teacher isn’t willing to teach for whatever his/her students are willing to designate for them, they aren’t a teacher.
How’s THAT for a pay system. Each teacher has a pool of pay available and the students determine how much of it they get.
With that thinking Charlie, everyone in corporate America should be paid the same way.
cttsp5, I appreciate your support. We are talking about a very few teachers that MAY not do all that extra stuff and still get paid the same mount as the rest of us. THEY are the techers that make it hard for us to argue that we are worth our salary. There must be way to rid the schools of those techers so the rest of us can get paid fairly.
I happen to think that the AFT is on its way to doing just that. If the teacher’s unions can get a proper evaluation process in place, then there will be lot less complaints about us being overpaid. I would think that $40/hour is really outrageous, unless all their students actually become well educated during the teacher’s care.
I don’t set the salary schedule, however.
ctsp5, I, too, appreciate your support of teachers. Test results just can’t be the main criteria for measuring a teacher’s success–too many variables. My preference was always the basic students–I was never going to reach the kind of classroom success reached by my colleagues who taught enriched classes. I do believe that pay should take into account the amount of required work and/or that done voluntarily outside the classroom in preparation for the classroom. Grading papers, planning lessons, reading new material in new books, preparing assignments that my students could comprehend (the material accompanying the texts were often very difficult for my basic level students). As for the union evaluating teachers–I am not sure how I feel about that. That sounds as though it could be a divide and conquer tactic. Also, administrators are paid to do just that–what happens if the teacher-evaluators don’t agree with the administrator–who gets the final say. I just see problems. I do believe the administrators should be able to seek opinions from teachers about their colleagues (especially the non-tenured teachers who are in a probatinary period). I might have had a fairly good idea which of my colleagues might not put in as much time preparing for their classes, etc. However, most of what I would hear would be from students. In all my forty-three years of teaching, I had very little first-hand knowledge of how teachers performed in the classroom.
For the most part, I agree with Charlie (strangely enough)–not about the money but about evaluation by students. I would much rather have been judged by my students but not during the time they are actually in my class. Once students realize they have that much power, things deteriorate. Students need hindsight to become good judges of teachers.
Evaluations of teachers should not be popularity contests (by students or administrators). Also, I found that students have some weird criteria. One year some students told me that they like my teaching methods primarily because they always knew where they stood. I gave out grade sheets every week. Now that specialty of mine wouldn’t be so important because, I believe, with Skyward all teachers have to keep students apprised of their status.
I can also vouch that most teachers work more than 6.5/hrs a day, and 180 days a year.
My daughter completed in May her 1st year as a foreign language teacher in the Springfield District. Their contract time was from 8:15 (school started at 8:20), and contract time ended at 3:15, I believe. She has indicated that she
never arrived after 7:45 am to prepare, and usually left
after 4:30 pm. Does 7:45 am to 4:30 pm add up to 6.5 hours?
She didn’t even have her own room, she traveled between rooms with all her materials on a cart.
That does not count her taking papers home to grade and input online on a computer, or prepping for next day.
She also did this on any weekend that she came home to visit us.
Then there is also the times involved with open house and
parent/teacher conferences. She had to attend extra orientation days as a new teacher before the year began.
This on top of dealing with many students who were disrespectful; having to take time to teach them the importance of flushing toilets, throwing litter in garbage cans, among other things these students should already know.
2-3 times she had 1 student yelling at her in class accusing her of being a bad teacher. (thank goodness for the principal’s supporting her, not student) Another student hardly turned in homework then wondered why he was getting a D or an F.
Her 1st year salary: just under $30k. That union just negotiated a new contract, but I don’t know whether the pay was frozen, or if she gets a slight one.
With Skyward, we put the grades on line and we can see how many times ech parent has checked their grades. It is always interesting to see the parents who check their kids an average of 3 times a day. Then there are others who have never logged on.
Three more former colleagues of new District 150 Superintendent Grenita Lathan appear headed to administrative posts in the district, including second-in-command.
Michelle Ungurait, director of magnet and choice schools at Guilford County Schools in North Carolina, is named in a human resources report to be appointed associate superintendent at Monday night’s District 150 School Board meeting.
http://www.pjstar.com/news/x1981288568/Three-more-former-Lathan-colleagues-recommended-for-District-150-posts
Dennis, again I appreciate your support as well, but we are trying to get to the idea that there CAN be a teacher that works less hours than your daughter but gets paid more for the same job. We as a profession must find a way to ensure we are all doing the best job we can. I don’t think requiring all teachers to stay at school for that extra hour is the right way to go, because I grade better at night in my chair and AC after my kids go to bed.
Average Teacher–Agreed, I graded better sitting in my chair with the AC on, etc. I was always at school by 6 or 6:30 a.m., so I needed a nap before I could grade papers for 2+ hours a night. Dennis, glad to hear that your daughter had all the same experiences/responsibilies that most of us have as teachers.
Let’s also not forget that teachers are always doing ‘continuing education’ to improve their teaching methods and/or possible move into other educational areas.
Depending on the district, I think teachers may have to pay some of that out of pocket. Sharon, please correct me if I am wrong on that.
My daughter indicated that she is interested in learning to become a teacher mentor.
No, some teachers do those things. We as teachers take the few bad with the vast majority that are good. I don’t think we should have to. One bad primary techer can ruin the lives of all the teachers on up the ladder. Tenure must be changed if our eduction system is going to survive.
“everyone in corporate America should be paid the same way.”
absolutely.
Average Teacher–I don’t think getting rid of tenure will solve the problem. If a teacher is that bad, then the administrator should recognize it and take care of the problem. Bad tenured teachers can be fired, but the administrator has to go through all the steps, document the inadequacies, etc. If there are no concrete proofs that a teacher is a bad teacher, then maybe he/she isn’t a bad teacher. As I’ve said before, sometimes the principal and teachers do not have the same criteria for good/bad teachers. Some principals have favorites who might not be good teachers.
Dennis, yes, not all our tuition is paid. If I remember correctly, I had to pay extra to take classes at Bradley because the tuition is based on the going rate at a state university. Also, if you take more than a set number of hours (9, I think) a year, then you have to pay for the extra class hours.
Sharon, I deeply respect you and what you do for us on these blogs. Keep fighting the good fight. However, in this case, you are perverting what I said. I said tenure should be “changed” and not “got rid of.” I honestly like tenure and think it should stay in some form, but we need to increase the proffesionalism of our profession and the easiest way to do that is to change the way we do evaluations to a remedial system that teaches to our faults and if we are bad, than we should be counseled out instead of fought for.
average teacher – if you haven’t already, you may want to take a look at the recent teacher’s union contract in Washington, D.C.
http://dcps.dc.gov/DCPS/About+DCPS/Chancellor%E2%80%99s+Corner/Chancellor%E2%80%99s+Notes/Chancellor%E2%80%99s+Notes:+The+Power+of+a+Teacher+-+Groundbreaking+New+Contract+Takes+Effect+-+July+9,+2010
As well as the Performance Assessment System that is a part of the agreed upon contract.
http://dcps.dc.gov/DCPS/In+the+Classroom/Ensuring+Teacher+Success/IMPACT+%28Performance+Assessment%29
Average teacher, thanks and I do understand your point. I did misinterpret you to be calling for an end to tenure. On another topic, I have been taken aback at the last two board meetings at Dr. Lathan’s “hints” that we (I) should stop sending so
many FOIA requests. The requests both times “seemed” to be personal, not general, as I was probably the only person in the room who does FOIA regularly. The first week she said something to the effect that it would be helpful to stop the FOIAs since completing the requests is keeping them from getting their work done. This week she told us that the FOIAs in July have cost the district $3,000. I definitely have the feeling that she is attempting some “subtle” intimidation–which could be considered borderline illegal. Martha Ross began a discussion about the possibility of charging more for FOIAs to discourage them and/or help pay for the costs. The lawyer did interrupt to tell her that the law sets the cost of FOIA requests.
I think I’m going to have to FOIA a breakdown of that cost to find out what cost $3,000. Teri Dunn has been signing the FOIA letters lately, so perhaps $3,000 does represent the month’s portion of her $136,000 that is spent on fulfilling FOIA requests.
I will stop FOIAing when the district begins to give the public factual, not fantasy, data. The District Dashboard declares that in 2009 Manual had a 91% attendance rate. Laura Petelle did explain to me later that this figure is arrived at by some formula that determines state per pupil funding. Well, the formula isn’t rooted in fact. When the district can be honest enough to tell us that the attendance problems at Manual (or in the district) are out of control and when the district penalizes students for these absences, then I won’t be so interested in getting at the truth through FOIAs.
Jon, that sounds like exactly the type of program that I would love to see in 150. We all could use some honest reflection and growth.
Special board meeting at 3 p.m. this Friday with the sole action item being the termination of a principal. The fact that time for the public to speak is on the agenda seems a bit strange. Does anyone have any hint about the identity of the principal? We all know that these decisions are usually made in executive session and voted on by number only at the regular meeting. Therefore, what is this all about–and how can speakers speak to the issue if they don’t know which principal’s contract is being terminated?
Sharon- That is very intriguing. Does anybody know what the second part of the agenda is all about? Closed session after the prinicipal is possibly terminated. It refers to personnel and litigation.
More craziness! When will it end?
Lathan must be thinking to herself, “What have I gotten myself into?”
No, I would hope she isn’t thinking that. She wouldn’t have been a Supt. in the running if she had not done her homework on this district. She was well aware of the “hurdles” this district was facing; ie, the “good ‘ole boy” club and principals who have been given a “pass” for FAR too many years. Hope she cleans house…..starting at the top. Excellent administrators create excellent teachers! Now you know why D150 struggles.
Yes, there have been some administrators that needed to go but there are some teachers that need to go also. I think Lathan will support the principals on getting them out. It will be interesting which principal is getting outed.
150teacher, I agree with you to a certain extent, but you never really know what you have gotten yourself into until you are in the trenches. I’m glad she is cleaning house, don’t get me wrong. It needs to be done. But, not for one minute do I believe she heard the entire truth from this board. Hopefully, she read this blog!!!
could not agree with you more. I don’t think this board is shady. I think some of them lack brain matter…..1 +2 does not equal 4!!! When I was a new teacher, my principal did not spend 1 minute mentoring or helping me. I was left to my own devices. Fortunately, I had the wherewithall to “learn quickly” not to “bother” the queen in her office. BTW, she is still in the district…..
“She wouldn’t have been a Supt. in the running if she had not done her homework on this district.”
You are so naive… she has been resume building for the past 5 years… running for every promotion available and applying for a new job as soon as she gets there. I doubt she even knows what time zone we’re in. If you haven’t figured that out yet, the superintendent is a retirement position. You get there will all kinds of promises and a big fat paycheck and separation package and you just wait. Grenita did it all in about 5 years… now she is set for life. Illinois, Kansas, Texas… what’s the difference to her?
Sorry Charlie, I guess I’m not as jaded as you. I know that when I have applied in other school districts, I always googled the name to get as much background as possible so I would be prepared in an interview.
Good catch, Sharon. Guess we’ll have to wait and see. I suppose it would be related to the appeal at the last meeting. Does anyone know why the PJStar has had a FOIA pending since January? Regarding the crew Dr. Lathan has inherited: tip of the iceberg.
I remember reading somewhere (Elaine’s blog?) that a new principal was taking over at Glen Oak. So maybe the principal being terminated is Ms. Shipp.
On Dr. Lathan’s hiring of former colleagues:
From the looks of the photo (from Emerge) of Dr. Michelle Ungurait, this should shut up the Lathan doubters and naysayers that she is only interested in working with other African-Americans.