250 thoughts on “D150, union at impasse (UPDATED)”

1. 150teacher, who (other than Michael) is “blaming teachers”? Blaming an old contract that everyone agreed to in 2000 – sure, among other things. I give Terry Knapp a tremendous amount of credit for getting that contract for the teachers back in 2000 – that is what he is supposed to do.

   So, the administration wants to correct THEIR past mistakes (such as approving that 2000 contract) and implement a freeze and some other minor changes (granted, there may be other issues, too, but what are they?). Who really thinks the teachers will strike under the current situation? What leverage do they have? You can point the finger back at the administration, and rightfully so, but what does that really mean about the current teacher’s contract? How does one cover a $9MM operating deficit?

   Professor – you do make me laugh, too. An anonymous commenter calling out another anonymous commenter for being…. anonymous 🙂 Essentially saying I need to “get a life” for commenting here, and you are… commenting here about it. And, of course, back to the personal attacks.

   OK, maybe I’ll teach. Now what? What else you got? BTW,

   I don’t have an associates degree – Strike ONE…

   I’m not an administrator – Strike TWO….

   Just for fun, let’s start with one of your statements:

   “Really outside of about 20 bloggers most understand the full details of what is going on. And in reality most parents will too.”

   Please elaborate – what are the “full details”? What is “going on”?

   Now, be careful here… If you answer, someone may think you need to “get a life”. If you DON’T answer, some may think it’s because you “can’t back up that talk”… Or some will just say it’s both 🙂

   TR64 – IMO – In My Opinion

2. So can I not question a politician because Ive never done the job? I can only comment on occuaptions I have first hand knowledge of? The Professor when have you worked in educational admin? Why dont you step it up and show us all how to run the district? Im only willing to sub if I can get everything a first year teacher is eligible for, including salary not daily pay.

3. Jon, this is what I don’t get. You know my frame of reference, my focus, etc., You know that as a retired teacher I have friends, still in District 150, whom I support. Also, I care about the students of District 150 and even more so I want the public school to survive–I believe it is an endangered “species.” I have said over and over again–and have asked both you and Frustrated to share information about your own (and her spouse’s) working conditions, benefits, etc., because you both have been so very critical of the compensation, protection, and benefits earned by teachers. As public information, the salaries of individual teachers are available to all of you. Teachers are at a tremendous disadvantage in this discussion in that we can’t compare our jobs to yours–you don’t tell us anything about your jobs. We can’t go online to find your salaries. You say that Trewyn teachers are well-compensated for the conditions about which they complain and that it is their choice to teach there. It isn’t just about the teachers–students share these environments with the teachers. Teacher issues are student issues; make the situation better for students and it will also be better for students. One of the worst things that will occur because of this em passe will be that class sizes can soar–a necessity if the Woodruff closing has a prayer of working. Who will suffer from that decision? The teachers will be at a disadvantage because their jobs will be more difficult, but the real losers will be the students who will not get the attention they need.
   Also, I was holding back on my opinions about Durflinger–I had hopes that he would be able to help the district. However, I now see that his choice was a very calculated one–he can make these decisions to ignore the teachers. He has absolutely nothing to lose. He can walk away and leave all the repercussions to the new superintendent.
   I do have a question. Will the Edison and Manual teachers continue to make more money because they have a longer school day? We know that the rest of the teachers will not be offered extra pay for that extra hour on Wednesday–and I’m not even saying they should. I am saying that that extra hour will do absolutely nothing to improve the academic status of 150 schools or students.

4. Ok Sharon here you go. I am currently self employed. I made 30k last year. I pay for my own insurance which is VERY expensive. I pay into my own retirement. I work year round with no paid vacation because every day Im not working there is no income. I work sometimes 7 days a week and also many times over 8 hours a day depending on the situation. I have two bach degrees several courses towards a masters and additional for fun classes at ICC. I dont teach because I dont like to babysit, it has nothing to do with the work.

5. Oh my spouse works as a social worker with battered women, she also left teaching, and makes 24k a year with very expensive and bad benifits, little paid vacation and also a fairly bad retirement plan. She is on call somtimes an additional 8 hours a day on top of her normal work day. She works holidays, weekends, nights and yes also works more then eight hours a day. She works many hours unpaid going over case files and working with her clients whenever they can meet with her, due to safety issues.

6. Thanks, Stephen–and I do agree and understand that self-employed people work many, many hours and without compensation for that hard work. My cousins own their own business–I know that what you say is very true. Also, your wife has chosen a profession that does require dedication and work way beyond the call of duty and without sufficient compensation. You both never considered or gave up teaching–that’s what is amazing. You found teaching so unrewarding–despite the high salaries–that you gave up the financial benefits. (Cases such as yours are why I support national health insurance). I’m not sure–you may have just proven why teachers need the extra money–perhaps the demand creates the need to keep people in the profession. I’m being facetitious–don’t want to be. I appreciate your giving out your personal informtion. It does help me to understand the resentment of teachers by those of you who do not get just compensation for your work.

7. Sharon, I’ll reiterate my central argument:

   “Absolutely, most teachers work long hours (far more than the minimum 6 1/2 per day and far more than 9 months/year) and most of those in D150 in particular teach under very difficult circumstances. But when it comes to compensation, put things in perspective and recognize the huge gains made since 2000 and hopefully most will agree that, even with a current proposed one year salary freeze, a minimum 4.6% annual increase every year since 2000 is hardly something to complain about.”

   I saw, too, that you were on your friend’s blog (he who shall not be named) and that he largely agreed with me. 🙂

   Yes, admittedly I came on strong ( with a ton of sarcasm in doing so), but I don’t blame teachers. But I also don’t think teachers are unique. I do think that the “public school” as it exists now, is endangered. Start over with charters and with choice- go back to school autonomy, but get rid of the one size fits all mentality, both as it relates to students and to teachers (such as compensation).

   Yes, this district administration/boards have screwed many things up. It’s also attempting to rectify many things – look at all the people at the top who are gone the past year, the past two years.

   You and I have had many discussions about class sizes, but this fact seems pretty clear: Since 2000, the student population at D150 has decreased 10%, but the number of teachers has decreased only 1%. Based on that stat, you could eliminate 9% of the teachers and average class sizes could be what they were in 2000. Again, that’s not blaming teachers – it’s blaming the administration for continuing at such an unaffordable pace – hampered by the union contract they signed that apparently leaves them with little ability to, as the PJStar said, “determine how many teachers they would employ.”

   As for teacher’s pay at different schools, I think it should vary. Generally speaking, I don’t think someone at Kellar, all things being equal, should make the same as someone at Garfield. It’s simple supply and demand. I also think principals should be allocated a budget for teacher compensation and work with that accordingly – much as is done in the “private sector” of a non-unionized company. (OK, maybe I’m dreaming) Call it unfortunate, but running a school district like D150 is like running a $160MM business.

8. Jon, I appreciate and notice your change in attitude. I’ve been on the blog enough for one night (probably a month), so I won’t go on and on. None of these issues are easy to sort out. In the long run, I believe the dialogue and disagreements on this blog are beneficial. However, I see no reason why Kellar and Garfield teachers should be on a different pay scale. I don’t think the “results” should necessarily be the deciding factor–for so many reasons. Teaching is a “people” business; people (the students) can’t be programmed for success or failure. The same teaching and teaching methods can be successful for one student and unsuccessful for another–that’s why measuring success by test results just isn’t fair. Somehow teachers should be graded on effort, etc. Teachers cannot be blamed for a student’s response to what actually could be “good” teaching.

9. Good night, Sharon, but do understand that I think Garfield teachers, all things being equal, should make MORE than those at Kellar.

10. LOL I’m with Jon!!

11. Also, Sharon, you said “Teachers are at a tremendous disadvantage in this discussion in that we can’t compare our jobs to yours–you don’t tell us anything about your jobs. We can’t go online to find your salaries.”

    Go to www. salary.com – enter nurse, or accountant, or anything you can think of and see what the salaries look like.

    Alternatively, go to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, to this page:

    http://www.bls.gov/bls/blswage.htm

    and check out the median wages of 800 different occupations. The median for all U.S. occupations was about $15.50/hr. At 40 hours/week for 52 weeks, that’s about $32k/year – that’s not starting pay – that’s the median pay for all wage earners.

12. What to say. Jon does such a great job debating this issue that all I have to say is “ditto.” Jon, one factor you have not offered up in your calculations in relation to teacher’s salaries, is the short work year coupled with the only 6 ½ hour work day. In private employment, 2080 hours per year is the standard used in salary calculations. Jon will have to run the numbers, but if you make $50,000 in the private sector working all year long 8 hours a day, how much more are you really earning for your time than a teacher that works an abbreviated work day and year making $27,000 plus?

    MAWB – entry level salary is just one comparison point for different fields. Perhaps we need to look at others to truly be fair. According to the U of I website, applicants successful in gaining admission into the College of Engineering presented a median ACT score of 30 – 33. Conversely, applicants gaining admission into the College of Education at U of I were successful with a median ACT score of 25 -28. Big difference! And then there is that pesky little matter that determines salaries – market forces (I guess one of the exceptions is unionized teachers). Your son had a great starting salary 10 years ago because engineers were and continue to be in demand. Sorry, those are just some of the facts that unions wish to disregard when negotiating appropriate compensation levels for their employees.

13. Sharon – I think I have recounted this before, but I think many folks look at others that appear to earn more and say “gee wiz” aren’t they fortunate.

    My husband routinely departs for work at 6 or 6:30 a.m. and returns around 7 to 7:30 p.m. Several nights a week he then also has conference calls beginning at 9 or 10 p.m. in the evening. On the nights he has no conference calls, he works on the computer a hour or so, and of course at least 4 hours of work at least one day on the weekend. And just so you don’t misunderstand, he is not doing anything special, all his co-workers have similar work schedules. Does he make more than a teacher? I am not sure if you really take into account the number of hours he put in.

    I am sure other bloggers can tell tales much the same about their employment hours and demands. Teachers need to get real with their expectations of compensation, benefits, and hours of work, especially during these challenging economic times.

14. Jon it seems you continue to cite 2 things teachers salaries and length of year. First off teachers work more than 9 months, so please check with a teacher before you spout off. Second, as I said before if you want to quote teacher salaries, please go back beyond 2000 and ask Sharon how she was compensated up til that point. Next, until you view the entire offer I would advise for you to wait and see. From what I hear, the teachers have a WAGE FREEZE AGAIN this year. This contract isnt about $$$. There are quite a few things that are language issues, so to only cite $$ reasons, we all might want to wait and see how that will play out. We all appreciate your passion and if you have great ideas, I would encourage you to run for the School Board, or provide some editorials on how to help 150 out of their mess beyond the simple, “teacher salary” argument. Also stated most teachers would work longer WITH STUDENTS, while it appears the dist. wants to extend the day for teachers meetings. Seems twisted logic to me. Regardless like most individuals, once your mind is made up there is very little anyone or anything will do to change that. If people are stuck on the old, “teachers get the summers off and make so much money” there is nothing anyone can do to change that. Once the non-$$$ issues are revealed I would certainly hope that then we all have a true picture of what is going on, but to simply continue to cite salary when the teachers are taking a wage freeze for the 2nd time in 4 years, seems a bit misguided. And Jon actually yeah I am planning on “getting a life” as it appears this conversation wont go anywhere until all the issues are revealed, so I will check back in a few days.

15. To Frustrated, as Sharon and others have said, if teaching is such an easy profession, and you make so much $ for such little time, then everyone should be doing it. There is a reason they dont. And one could make the same argument for other jobs as well. Bottom line is there are always teaching positions available. Go back to school and get your degree and come join them. Sounds easy to me, and you would be able to kick back, relax, and do nothing for the next 30 years.

16. FYI From “diduknow” on pjstar.com:

    1. Teachers are not arguing for more pay, so why not just drop that comment
    2. Do some research about merit pay. Try looking at what the state of Texas has done wih that concept and look where it got them. It’s now abolished. One main reason is that Reading and Math are the main tested subjects. So therefore, art, PE, Spanish, Chorus, Science, Social Studies teachers did not receive any merit pay. This upset these teachers. So Texas decided if the school does well, then the principal can spread the money evenly among its teachers. Well that angered the Reading and Math teachers because they were the ones who raised the scores and did the hard work, yet their colleagues were also reaping the benefits. Merit pay is not a solution to the problems in District 150.
    3. Getting rid of bad teachers falls on the principals. There is nothing stopping a principal from doing this already. It is a lengthy process that needs to be documented very well. I just completed my Masters in administration and found out that it could take as long as a couple years for this to happen. Principals just don’t want to put in that kind of time (nor do they have the time) to do this. That aspect has nothing to do with the unions.
    4. As for tuition reimbursement. If a teacher already has a master’s degree, they must then take masters level classes. Not many institutions will offer only masters level classes, you must be involved in a program. Those programs cost at least $10,000 or more. And teachers are supposed to pay for this how???
    5. Teachers fail in the classrooms. Really??? Last time I checked the students are the ones who take the tests. Is it the teachers fault when a student decides not to do homework assignments? How many teachers give students a break and accept late work up to a month past due (answer: most)? So if we can’t get students to do homework assignments, how can we get them to do well on standardized tests? You can only motivate students so much, teachers aren’t miracle workers.
    6. I wish people would quit comparing D150 to Dunlap, Morton, etc. The socioeconomics of these regions are not even close to comparable. You are talking about a whole different type of student population. I could guarantee that if you took failing students at D150 schools and placed them in Dunlap schools, there wouldn’t be much change. If the students and parents take school seriously, the children will shine. If school is not recognized as important in the household, then students will most likely fail…That’s the ugly truth that people don’t want to face.

17. Well, Professor, your post brings up another interesting point of debate. I believe I could be an effective high school guidance counselor and have related work experience and education. But with way too many years spent in higher education, I have no interest in returning to college to pursue yet another degree.

    Similarly, my spouse just remarked the other day he would love to teach as a second act in his career. He has work experience and advanced education that would make him an ideal candidate for a high school math or science teacher and yet, even with a shortage in this profession, there are barriers to entry. Makes you wonder who the current system is designed to serve??

18. Jon … Thanks to George Bush and NCLB, Kellar “ain’t what it used to be,” so don’t fool yourself into thinking that the teachers out there have it easy. In fact, their challenges may be more difficult because the divide between abilities is so great. My children attended Kellar several years ago and the school has changed quite a bit since that time. Before you make these kinds of broad statements, you should visit for a day and watch how hard Kellar teachers have to work to differentiate instruction. Not an easy task if you do it effectively.

    Regarding the looming strike … I just love that most people think it’s all about money. That’s NOT the case, but discussing specifics of the agreement (or lack thereof) in this forum is not the appropriate place. Suffice it to say that I believe most teachers understand the current economic situation and aren’t asking for the moon. Important issues that will DIRECTLY AFFECT the education of Peoria children are at stake. THOSE are the issues for which we feel a strike might be necessary. It is shocking to see how little respect the BOE is showing their professional teachers. All those with children/grandchildren in Dist 150 schools should read through the points of contention carefully when they are made public.

    Teachers must STAND UP and STAND TOGETHER to do what is best for their students. We are being asked to agree to ridiculous demands by the BOE. If you teach for 150, be sure to go to the meeting Sunday night!!!!!!!!

19. My two cents. I wish people would quit saying we want more money. Hey, we are all aware of the economic situation of our country right now. Unless you have worked in D150, you honestly are unaware of the treatment of teachers by principals at certain schools. Unless you have had a long pointed fingernail inches from your eyeball with the principal yelling, I don’t care what your contract says, while trying to explain a contractual obligation on the part of the district, then please, let us, do what is right for everyone. If there are bad teachers in D150, then they were hired by BAD principals. If the general public feels it’s hard to “get rid” of ineffective teachers, well, in D150 it’s even harder to get rid of ineffective principals.

20. “If the general public feels it’s hard to “get rid” of ineffective teachers, well, in D150 it’s even harder to get rid of ineffective principals”

    Especially if they are a minority.

21. I am subbing in the district. I am certified to teach. I went back to school to become certified because there was a teacher that was ABSOLUTELY horrible. We even went so far as to ask about having her removed from her position and was told that she was retiring in 2 years, so it wasn’t worth the time to file a grievance. That was when I decided that I could do a better job than she, so I went back to school to prove it.

    Is subbing easy in 150? Not a chance! Is it easy subbing in other districts? Well, yes, because the students are still there to learn and don’t mistreat or disrespect the substitute. I have been a sub for over a year now and still find 150 to be my passion. There are still students that are reachable and I believe I can do that. Are all students reachable/teachable? No. Does that mean we should give up trying? NO!!!!! All teachers want to have a positive impact on at least one student in their career.

    Here is my dilemma–
    I am currently a sub in 3 different school districts, 150 being one of them. I usually take the job from the first caller. I have my teaching degree, graduated in Dec., 2008 from BU. My husband has said that he doesn’t mind me working part-time as a sub IF I work at least 3 days a week. That helps me to pay off my student loans and contribute to the family’s financial goals. If/When the teacher’s go on strike, do I cross and risk the hatred of teachers I consider friends or not cross and risk the financial standing of my family and HOPE that the other districts will need subs.

    If I cross, I want the teachers to know that it isn’t because I don’t support them, it’s because, at this point, I made a commitment to my family that I feel I must abide by.

    For the record, I was was raised in a union house. My dad was in the electrician’s union in Indianapolis while I lived at home and still is, if I remember correctly. He went on strike at least 2x while I was growing up. I remember that one time was so long that my grandparent’s paid for our food and part of our utilities just so Mom and Dad could pay the mortgage and such.

22. Frustrated: Once again you failed to tell us how much your husband earns for all those hours he works. Also, what promotions lie ahead for him–do those possibilities have anything to do with the time he puts in on the job? Your arguments comparing your husband to teachers is ineffective without that vital piece of information. Your husband’s credentials for teaching math and science probably qualify him to teach at the college level–no teaching certificate necessary. Also, I believe this whole issue is clouded by teacher pay for extra curricular activities. Many of the highest salaries include compensation earned as coaches, sponsors of extra-curricular activities, etc. How would parents feel if all extra-curricular activities were eliminated? Also, some teachers earn more at the high school level because they teach an extra class. Look for much more of that to happen with the closing of Woodruff. Asking 5 teachers to take an extra class eliminates the hiring of another teacher–thus, a money-saving measure that ups the salaries of the 5 teachers. Jon, I took a brief look at the site your selected–and looked at the Illinois salaries (since we all work in Illinois). I saw many jobs requiring a college education that earn salaries comparable and even higher than those of teachers. Please don’t ask us to compare the salaries of workers with only a high school education or less with those of teachers. Now the person whose blog you recently visited has a whole different philosophic argument about making all salaries equal. Given his perspective, he can argue his case for lower salaries for teacher–but his perspective and philosophy is not the same as yours, so you can’t claim his argument.
    Also, if national health insurance becomes a reality, then the health benefits to teachers could become a non issue.

23. BAM, the only time that District 150 teachers did strike was probably in the early 1970s. I crossed the picket line and went to work. One of my reasons was similar to yours. I was a single teacher and thought I couldn’t afford to live without the money. At the time, I wasn’t a “union” person and really didn’t feel justified in striking–in hindsight, I realize that I was definitely misguided. During that particular strike, the number of teachers at Manual that were outside were about the same as those inside–so the grudges didn’t last long. I still feel guilty about the money that those on the outside lost to make things better for me. BAM, don’t you realize that every teacher that strikes is a breadwinner (maybe the only one) for his/her family and that he/she is risking far more than you would be risking by not crossing the picket line–I doubt that they will understand your reasons. My colleagues were incredibly kind to me then–but I have often wished that I had gone on strike with them. The last time that a strike vote was taken, I was ready to try to make up for my past transgression, but the contract was settled without a strike. I am still conflicted about asking non-tenured teachers to strike since they risk losing their jobs because they can be fired–no questions asked. I am sure the union needs their support–I am just conflicted on the subject even though I know if they are allowed to stick around, they will benefit from the sacrifice of their fellow teachers–same as you will when you get a teaching position. Also, to the those making salary the issue, I believe that is not the issue now and that if the teachers strike, they are risking a loss of salary for every day they’re out and they know they will probably not be striking for a salary increase. I know that the teacher that I know with five children and a stay-at-home wife/mother can’t afford to lose the money, but he won’t let his fellow teachers down the way I once did.

24. bamcdaniel – do not cross. Stay loyal to your colleagues and the profession. You became a teacher and it sounds like you are in it for the right reasons. We need you to stand strong WITH us.

25. So, Sharon, I guess what you are saying is I should risk future employment by backing the union now, when, in all honesty, it will collect my money when I am hired but NOT protect me for the first three years (at least).

    I would hope that the teachers that I consider friends would know me well enough to know that by crossing the picket line I am not detracting from what they are doing/standing for.

    I also think I am offended at your remarks concerning the financial situation of my household. You don’t live in my house, pay my bills, or raise my children so how do you know that by not subbing I wouldn’t be in a worse situation than some of the other teachers? Don’t make assumptions about others. You have done it alot with others on here and I find it to be disrespectful.

26. BAM: if we strike and you cross our pickets, you are thumbing your noses at us and what we are striking for. If it is a financial obligation to your family, then go to ALL the surrounding districts and sub. All surrounding districts need them and the pay is very competetive. If we strike, and are able to get some things we are bargaining for, then will you for go those negotiated items if you become a D150 teacher? Word to the wise: never cross a picket line. I know someone who crossed a picket during the UAW strike in the ’80’s and he was treated very badly by his union brothers and sisters for the remainder of his 12 years at CAT.

27. Its all about the kids though right? Hurting a fellow teacher, union or not, will help her students Im sure. The Professor I am tempted to go back to teaching just because Im concerned you might be in a classroom.

28. For the record, I am subbing in other districts at the moment. I usually take the first email/phone call that comes. To be honest, the other districts are a lot smaller and, therefore, do not need as many subs on a daily basis.

    I gather, from the comments here, that I am a horrible person for having to consider all of the ramifications of crossing a picket line. I had almost convinced myself not to cross, but now that I feel like I am being threatened if I do cross…

    Jon has brought this up before, but I wonder what the teacher union power would be today if the contract hadn’t been ratified in 2000. I appreciate what Terry did for the teacher’s, but it does allow for teachers to be protected, at all costs, with no regard to student success or failure.

    This discussion about the possibility of a strike and my struggle has made me sick to my stomach. I know what I should do. I know what I want to do. Those 2 things are not lining up. Time for me to ask for guidance from a neutral source. He has never steered me wrong yet. May not have always agreed with his answer, but he hasn’t been wrong.

29. BAM, I didn’t mean to disparage your family’s needs–just trying to say that most teachers face the same or greater loss. Striking is a sacrifice–make no mistake about it. Also, I clearly stated that I made the same decision that you suggest that you will make. There is no point in my being high and mighty on the subject–my former colleagues know full well that I did not support them in the 1970s–one just reminded me of that in our phone conversation two days ago–friendly reminder. Everyone who crosses the line will detract from what the teachers outside are doing. If you cross the picket line, your chances of getting a job in 150 will probably increase greatly. When I crossed the picket line, the union wasn’t that strong and there was a definite split among the teachers (I believe there were even two competing teachers’ groups at the time). Therefore, the hard-feelings were not as great as they probably will be now that everyone belongs to the union.

30. Everyone has to belong to the union. Even if you choose not to belong, you still have to pay dues to it. AND still have no protection.

31. Not only are there the nontenured teachers in the district, there are also about 30 part-time teachers who have zero protection from the union in the event of a strike.

32. Its all about the kids though bam. Dont you see that if you cross that line you’ll be hurting the kids. I mean why have a dedicated sub who really cares when you can have some dude who is little more then a day laborer to stand in. Im sure the latter is best for the kids.

33. From The Professor: “As for tuition reimbursement. If a teacher already has a master’s degree, they must then take masters level classes. Not many institutions will offer only masters level classes, you must be involved in a program. Those programs cost at least $10,000 or more. And teachers are supposed to pay for this how???”

    This is not an entirely valid argument. At ISU those with Master’s degrees can register as a “student at large” and register to take just about any master’s level course on campus. Those that are “majors only” can be accessed simply by talking to advisors for the programs in question. Make no mistake…more students in a university class = more income for the university. I know from my time in D150, there are MANY opportunities from St Xavier, etc. to take individual master’s level classes. There is a whole slew of these options available for teachers and I have MANY friends that have taken these classes from Masters +0 credits all the way through Masters +75.

34. BAM: I sympathize with your situation. I was in D150 for the 2000 contract, was not tenured at that time and was pregnant with my first child. Our financial situation was such that my salary was absolutely necessary to keep things running smoothly at our house. I was loathe to strike and was VERY glad I didn’t have to make that decision. I agonized over it until the night the contract was voted on.

    Really, I think it comes down to what you need to do to sleep at night. I would hope that any of your future colleagues could understand that, whatever decision you eventually make.

    As I sit here replying to you, I’m wondering what my family will decide about having my son cross a picket line to attend school if there is a strike. Some of my best friends are teachers and I love the teachers at my son’s very excellent D150 school, yet I’m not sure how we’ll proceed in that eventuality. So, I guess your question has resonated with me on that level. Let’s hope it doesn’t come to that, I guess! Good luck with your decision.

35. Stephen: You might consider the money issue all about the teachers, not the children. However, the other issues (the ones the strike will be about this time) are about the students. I consider class size to be the biggest right now–and students will be the losers if the administration wins this “way out” of their very bad decision to close Woodruff.

36. Frustrated, my son didn’t major in engineering. He majored in Criminal Justice at WIU and got a job in marketing! He barely got above a C, but he played baseball really, really well. I don’t think he even got a 24 on his ACT….. maybe a 22 if he was lucky, but dang, he could throw a ball! We hardly had to pay a penny for him for college, but my daughter who got a 32 on her ACT, we paid every penny. Sports was not her thing. She graduated with honors. Then, after we paid all that out of state tuition, she took a job living in a hut with no running water or electricity to the tune of $3,000 a year in West Africa!! Where is the justice in that? LOL

37. There will be a meeting at Godfather’s tomorrow night at 6 p.m.–all are welcome except 150 teachers who will be having their own meeting. 🙂
    Another thought about non-tenured teachers crossing the picket line: First of all, they have nothing to gain or to lose by crossing the picket line in terms of job security this year because, with the closing of Woodruff, there is every likelihood that no non-tenured teacher will be recalled anyway. Also, as I have stated before, Illinois State law prohibits the union from defending a non-tenured teacher against the loss of his/her job. However, non-tenured teachers–if hired back–do get the benefit of all negotiated contractual benefits–thus, they are helped by the union. Under normal conditions (when the situation is such that most non-tenured teachers would be recalled), non-tenured teachers who cross picket lines could possibly be protected by the union. In such cases–if the union chooses to do so–a non-tenured teacher who crosses the picket line and is not called back could be defended by the union on the grounds that the teacher was let go because he/she crossed the picket line. There is little likelihood of protection by the union this year because most, if not all, non-tenured teachers will probably lose their jobs–especially true if the district gets its way in allowing soaring class sizes. Why doesn’t the administration view large class sizes as a sure way to chase more people out of 150? Shortsightedness, I guess.

38. MAWB: You make another valid point. Since when does a high grade on a standardized test make a person or their contributions to society less meaningful? This country was built by many average people. I guarantee you that most “geniuses” would not make good school teachers. They would have absolutely no compassion for the struggles that many of our young people face in their academic pursuits. Patience is one of the most required attributes of a teacher–many exceptionally bright people have no patience with those who find learning more difficult. There are, I believe, a significant number of people with high IQ’s who become dropouts in school and in society–and contribute nothing to society.

39. It saddens me to read about how many people and/or their spouses have jobs/careers that require so much overtime. This impacts one’s balance in life as well as the balance of the family members’ lives. Of those who are not required but choose to work massive amounts of overtime, the question is “Why?” Have we all bought into the idea of having it all–the 3000+ square foot home, the luxury cars, large screen tv and all the bells and whistles that can go along with it, the name brand clothing and shoes, the clubs, the positions of “importance,” etc.? Or are our lives outside of work so meaningless to us that we prefer to stay in our comfort zone? I know that many people have to work more than one job just to make ends meet for the basic necessities; however, I also believe that many work to provide a certain lifestyle beyond the necesseties. It saddens me that hard economic times is used as an excuse to treat eimployees poorly. For some reason, I keep thinking of a scene from Elie Wiesel’s “Night” in which the Nazis have taken starving Jews from the ghetto and packed them into cattle cars on their way to Auschwitz. The Nazi guards think it is hilarious to through one loaf of bread into the cars packed with the starving Jews and watch them fight over it. I wonder what would have happened, however unlikely, would have banded together and thrown the loaf back.

40. MAWB – I just reread my comments about your comments about ACT scores. I see there might be room for misreading my comments. I was speaking more about students such as your son–who didn’t get 32 on the ACT. So what–I would imagine he is still contributing in a positive way to our society. Your daughter with the 32 score is doing the same–in fact, sacrificed to help at a loss of her earning power. My whole point was that ACT scores are not the end-and-beall for determining how well a graduate will fit into our society, etc. Besides many students who go to college with a lower ACT score apply themselves and within a few years could probably outdo their peers who scored higher on the test as 11th graders.

41. Professor, once again you make statements about what you think I said that are completely wrong. Case in point, you said

    “First off teachers work more than 9 months, so please check with a teacher before you spout off.”

    Whereas I said (twice)

    “Absolutely, most teachers work long hours (far more than the minimum 6 1/2 per day and far more than 9 months/year) and most of those in D150 in particular teach under very difficult circumstances.

    Also, you say it isn’t about money, but state over and over that there have been two wage freezes. So, if you don’t want to talk about money, then why do you talk about money in your rebuttal?

    That said, I do agree that there are likely more issues than just money (I said “granted, there may be other issues, too, but what are they?”)

    To that end, teachpia said “We are being asked to agree to ridiculous demands by the BOE.” but also states this is not the place to discuss them. Well you may think so, but those items presented in the paper don’t seem so outrageous, so, right or wrong, it doesn’t paint the PFT in a very favorable light. And teachpia, I’ll say to you what I’ve said over and over on this topic – teaching is NOT easy. The point about Kellar and Garfield is that there are likely more teachers willing to teach at Kellar (bad conditions maybe) than at Garfield (worse), just as there are likely more willing to teach at Morton than Kellar. And why do you assume I don’t know what it’s like at Kellar, Garfield, Morton, whatever?

    And for ALL the teachers who comment here saying “you don’t know what it’s like” that is a losing argument – pure and simple. But go ahead, attack people like BAM for trying to decide how to best take care of her family.

    And last but not least, Sharon. The point of the salary comparison is that teachers should think more about public perception as a whole – and understand the general public better. Remember, it is the general public that sees a $9MM deficit and while it rightly blames the administration – when you get right down to it, how do you cover that kind of deficit? NO ONE has attempted to address that question – (and like I said, cutting Edison and Johns Hopkins and the ENTIRE Central Admin won’t get $9MM.) You either cut bigger expenses (like teachers and other district workers) or increase revenues with more taxes. What do you think the public wants to see happen? In these economic times? Holding the line on salaries alone won’t do it. You are correct that there will be teachers who lose their jobs. And you can talk about class size, but the administration will say the average high school class size is 10. Prove them wrong if you can, but showing some groupings of class sizes for high school English isn’t doing that. How does the PFT address the issue I stated before – that since 2000 the student population has decreased by 10% but the teacher population by only 1%? THESE are the things the PFT needs to address.

    Yes, it’s a crap sandwich and everyone is going to take a bite – as the largest group expense-wise, the teachers will end up with the biggest bite and, yes, that will affect the children – everyone will take a bite.

    P.S. – Professor – If you want to analyze teacher salaries before 2000 (because, as you said, it’s not about money), feel free to do so. But remember this – if salaries were so low back then (probably were), was there such a problem getting teachers, like Sharon? I think not. It’s simple economics – supply and demand.

42. Jon: As a union teacher in D150, teachpia is correct with regard to what the BOE is “telling” us, we will do. Not all information regarding the contract negotiations has been made public(for obvious reasons). Again, D150 picks and chooses what they will address. We will be having a union meeting very soon and afterwards the negotiators/union executive board will let the public see the truth. Hinton and Co.(BOE) have run this ship called D150 right into an iceberg all the while hiring consultants, family members (at higher steps than others), and promoting idiots to run schools. Yes, the teachers and students will definitely have to take the biggest bite of this “shit” sandwich, but we aren’t eating ALL of it! I say give half of it to Wisconsin Ave. administrators.

43. Sharon, you are absolutely right. My youngest son didn’t do so hot on his tests either, but this year he graduating with a degree in chemistry and a degree in math. It’s just a matter of applying yourself. I majored in education in my 30s, graduated cum laude, taught one year and immediately started looking for a new job! I liked my kids better than anyone else’s. I was shocked at how rude the parents were. All this talk about kids not behaving in class and not much on parents. Teaching is not an easy job. You have to keep your principal happy, admin happy, the kids happy and the parents happy. It’s often a thankless job and contrary to what lots of people think, it doesn’t pay that great. I have absolutely no qualms about teacher salaries. Admin salaries? I have a few qualms about that! As well as all the consulting. I think Dist 150 consulting fees were outrageous, but I blame that on Admin not knowing what they were doing.

    I look at the agenda for Monday night and it seems to me we have much better people in these positions now.

44. Jon, please don’t tell me that there is an administrator or board member ignorant (not stupid, ignorant) enough to believe that the average class size is 10 (apparently you still hold on to that myth). If they are that far out of touch, then we are in bigger trouble than I thought. I took all (not some) class sizes of the two major subjects (English and social studies). That’s two hours out of five of almost every student’s day. District 150 is already down to a bare bones curriculum, so they are very, very few electives. My educated guess is that the district is going to do three things to try to make this Woodruff closing work: Use classrooms for six hours a day (force a significant number of teachers to travel with no class rooms of their own–a terrible way to teach to put all your stuff on a cart and move it from room to room every hour), ask teachers to teach a 6-hour, instead of a 5-hour day, (with extra pay) to avoid hiring extra teachers with benefits, etc., and raise the class sizes. These three measures are recipes for total disaster. I don’t think they have figured out a way to put Woodruff’s 130 special ed students (which are not included in my class size count numbers) into PHS where extra rooms will be needed since special ed class sizes are below 10.
    Jon, many in the general public still believe that teachers are “old-maid” school teachers who chose teaching as a calling and consider the children they teach as they children and are willing to teach for next to nothing–that fairly well describes my own attitude toward teaching. However, today the job market has opened up for women and many (like MAWB) have decided that teaching conditions and the salaries aren’t worth the sacrifice. Salaries had to be made competitive to draw qualified people into the profession.
    Yes, I understand that the general public and many parents consist of hard-working people who do not make as much as teachers and they tend to believe that teachers make too much. That fact doesn’t mean that the taxpayers shouldn’t expect to pay teachers salaries in keeping with their education level, etc.
    Again, the administration is making no attempt to reduce the number of administrators in the district. How many high school administrators do you think will be sent back to the classroom as a result of Woodruff closing? Of course, teachers are going to be the biggest expense of the school district–they are the only ones who do the actual job of teaching. Take a look at the listing of last year’s expenditures. Get rid of all the programs and the directors hired to oversee those programs. I realize that Skyward may have been necessary to bring 150 into the technological age–to communicate with parents, etc., but that was a tremendous piece of the 9 million dollar pie.

45. MAWB: I’ll take the consultant’s pay one step further; I had a former school board member tell me to my face, when asked about the inflated salaries for consultants and retired/rehired, I think the administration pulls the salary our of their a**es because they were ALL making different amounts of money for the same amount of time. A retired/rehired principal at one school was making almost 500.00 a day while another was being paid just under 450.00 a day. Got all this information from school board minutes (past years). Seriously, they need to A. follow their own board policies or B. write new policies and adhere to them.

46. PS: I am not necessarily advocating that building administrators lose their jobs–I think the administrative cuts should begin on Wisconsin Avenue (at at Manual where there are too many administrators).

47. No, clearly those administrators and BOE members don’t believe that AVERAGE class sizes are that low – they just put it out on the district report card and its been that low for years. The typical answer is “it has to do with special ed”. Maybe so, but special ed teachers count, too.

    BTW, Sharon, when you did your analysis on high school English classes – what was the AVERAGE?

    That district report card also says that there were 1,030 teachers for 13,825 students. That alone comes out to an average of 13.4 students per teacher. Of course, teachers do and should have a prep period – let’s assume they only teach 5 of 6 total classes a day. That brings the average ratio down to 11.2 for the district as a whole. Sure, maybe some of those teachers don’t teach in classes (which would have the effect of raising class sizes), but IF the report card info is correct, 1,000+ teachers for less than 14,000 students certainly seems too inefficient. And since the student population for the district is unlikely to increase – that means less teachers.

    Personally, I think the 10 average class size is too low to be correct, but I can’t PROVE it as yet, nor am I sure I want to go thru the effort. You said yourself that you were surprised at the number of small special ed classes. Do you think D150 has more special ed classes than similar districts – say like Rockford or Springfield? Why are their average reported class sizes not as low as D150?

    What are the costs of the “programs and directors” and what are they? Which ones are NOT required by the State or Feds – the entities who provide 1/2 the funding of D150. Just how much did Skyward cost? Show how it all adds up to $9MM every year. Again, that is what the PFT should be doing – show how it should be done with NUMBERS. Not relatively vague accusations of mismanagement. Otherwise it will simply be an argument of “we think D150 should do these general things” and the response “we can’t afford it”. Who wins that argument?

    As for compensation for one’s education, check out the following:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States

    Scroll down and you’ll see that the median salary of a person with a Bachelor’s degree is $43k – with a Master’s the median is $52k. (average D150 teacher salary is $55k) Again, maybe the PFT accepts the wage freeze, so maybe it’s more about retaining jobs. So again, how does the PFT address the data that shows student enrollment at D150 dropping by 10% since 2000, but teachers dropping by only 1%?

    Granted, the administration needs to be cut, too.

48. Jon, you don’t have to prove anything. Neither do I. Just wait to hear the reports from Peoria High and Manual next year. These average numbers don’t mean a thing when more real bodies show up to occupy desks that aren’t there. I love the way you pick out numbers out of the air as though they represent reality. The averages won’t do any good for counselors who find that 100 students need to take English 4, when they guessed that a lower number would need English 4, etc. You can’t just stuff kids arbitrarily into any class to adhere to averages–they have to be in classes that they need. I believe 150 is forgetting to take into account students who have failed classes (since I have heard summer school will not happen this year, or at best, for just seniors who need courses to graduate)–that will increase class size over the actual number of students enrolled. I can guarantee you that there is no reality in the number 10 as an average for basic and enriched classes.
    No, assessing the cost of programs is what the BOE and administrators ought to be doing–that is their jobs. However, I believe I will do some FOIAing. I just copied the list of programs for which 150 pays. Some may very well be government mandated–won’t know until I seek out the facts. You’ve heard about Keys 21–that was a program that most teachers have said was useless–but 150 thought it was the best thing since sliced bread. You’re right; 150 administrators can successfully hide much of their overspending–it just takes too much effort to uncover all those details. Eric Bush’s efforts for transparency didn’t last long.
    When it comes down to the wire, however, the closing of Woodruff is a bad idea because of the “safety” issue of putting these students together–doubling the number of discipline problems that exist in each school now. Again, wait and see. The district believes by putting some ideas on paper that they have solved the problems–what they have put on paper has no basis in reality. When I “issued” all my predictions of what would happen at the new Manual, I thought I would have to wait a couple of years before the bad news leaked out. I didn’t even have to wait 6 months.

49. Sharon said:

    “I love the way you pick out numbers out of the air as though they represent reality. The averages won’t do any good for counselors who find that 100 students need to take English 4”.

    OK, I took my numbers from the District Report Card. Where did your “100 students need to take English 4” come from? Out of the air? 🙂

    Really, what was the average you came up with for the Eng and SS classes?

50. Why was it that the overpriced custodians and maintenance were able to negotiate their 5 year contract? With their contract coming up will they once again be able to manipulate the administrators for another raise? Obviously the custodian and maintenance employees are more valued in this district than the teachers . I know through first hand experience, that as a former maintenance worker I was financially better off than many teachers. Between 2000 and 2002 with almost 7 years experience I was making approximately $46,000, with only an Associate’s Degree. I certainly did not have the degrees and extra hours, in addition to student loans that many, many teachers carry. At times, I felt sorry for teachers in the district who I know could have been making more as a custodian. Teachers take their work home, work all weekend sometimes, and work most evenings until bedtime on school work. Unfortunately this scenario continues to exist at 150. Now, the custodians and maintenance are milking the district even more by having a foreman to watch over 4 to 5 workers at an extra $5.00 per hour to his or her salary. If the maintenance who is a foreman is making $28.00 per hour he is now making $33.00 per hour, with no homework to worry about, nor student loans. Teachers need to keep fighting and maybe someday starting teachers can earn a salary comparable to a custodian of 150.

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