31 thoughts on “Illegal immigrants demand rights”

1. No, it’s not harsh, it’s common sense, wich seems to be almost non-existent in this country today.

2. Amen.

3. That’s what I said round them all up at the rally !!!!! I can sum up the entire debate with one word “ILLEGAL”

4. You gotta back that truck up a bit:

   “And I’ve never quite figured out why, if all these illegal immigrants are out marching in the open and they by definition have no constitutional right to do so, the police don’t just round them up and deport them.”

   Because yes, illegal aliens DO have limited constitutional rights and police CAN’T “just round them up and deport them.” (They CAN do so with due process of law, of course, just like with anybody else. And most immigration proceedings are administrative, not judicial, and so can bypass the 5th and 6th amendments. But not the 14th.)

   I don’t know where people get this idea that Constitutional rights are reserved to citizens. Part of what makes the U.S. Constitution unique and revolutionary, which they should have taught you when they taught Constitution in school, is that it provides such broad guarantees of legal rights to EVERYONE under law, not just to a “privileged” group of citizens.

   There are a handful of rights in the Constitution that are reserved specifically to CITIZENS — right to run for federal office and vote, f’ex — but virtually all of them are extended to all PEOPLE within the jurisdiction of the United States. Which is as it should be, under a free and fair system. When trying someone for a crime, we should be concerned about uncovering the truth of the CRIME, not about the status, race, or citizenship of the person who committed it.

   (Also? Countries that only extend legal rights to citizens tend not to do a real brisk tourism business. It’s virtually unheard of in modern democracies to limit legal rights relating to justice to citizens alone. That’s the kind of thing that causes international incidents.)

5. Thank you for the con law refresher. I’ll amend my statement. Why don’t they round them all up and — legally, administratively, constitutionally — deport them?

6. Eyebrows, I appreciate the refresher, too, very informative.
   I’m sure many if not most of the attendees will not be illegal immigrants, who, in my experience, tend to try to stay under the radar. Many of the marchers are likely to be people who work with the immigrant population, legal or illegal.

7. In Chicago, probably because the county board under Todd “Protecting Patronage Jobs at the Expense of Actual County Workers” Stroger cut county funding 17% across the board and it hit the “law & order” people especially hard, and the Chicago Police are chronically underfunded and overworked facing crimes presenting immediate physical danger to the people of Chicago. (And being sued repeatedly for brutality and constitutional rights violations, which does cut into the budget after a while.) I mean, the Cook County State’s Attorney’s office was facing layoffs of something like 1/5 of its prosecutors.

   If the Feds wanted to send in the hounds I’m sure they could, but my understanding is that INS is also chronically overworked and underfunded and that it’s a nightmare for LEGAL immigrants to get required papers processed in the prescribed amount of time. Further, INS’s budget is focused on the Southwest and Texas, where most illegal border-crossing occur, and its shouldered a lot of burden for Homeland Security enforcement vis-a-vis terrorist “immigrants” that it doesn’t really have the infrastructure to handle efficiently.

   So I’m guessing peacefully marching illegal immigrants in Chicago just isn’t high enough up on anybody’s list. (Also, Bush is trying to sway Latino voters to the GOP by – what’s the nice word for pandering? – well, by pandering to immigrants of questionably legal status.)

   If I were running the INS and I was looking for PRACTICAL solutions to stopping illegal immigration, I’d do three things:

   First, institute a vastly broader guest-worker program, primarily for migrant farm workers and summer landscape workers. Most of them don’t want to stay here; it’s just too risky to cross the border repeatedly, and those jobs suffer a chronic shortage of Americans and legal aliens willing to do them (which is basically the major criterion for getting a worker visa).

   Second, I would bust coyote ass like it was going out of style. Most coyotes are American citizens and that PISSES ME OFF. I have some sympathy for immigrants trying to move to this country to build a better life for their families and facing our byzantine immigration system. (It’s also important to realize that many of these people are very poorly educated and easy prey for coyotes and some do not realize what they’re doing is illegal. The amount of mythology and urban legend attached to “how to get into America” is stunning.) Cutting off the coyotes cuts off the major route for illegals getting into this country. (And coyotes are also mixed deep into illegal drug smuggling and sex trafficking, so that’d be a nice side benefit.) Frankly most coyotes meet the definition of human trafficking (under the “debt servitude” portion of the federal law), so I’d start prosecuting them under slavery statutes. Then I’d probably get creative and start bringing in RICO, and I’d probably amend the law to make it murder (rather than manslaughter) if you were smuggling migrants and one died. Keep caught coyotes in prison for as long as possible and try to make the crime sooooooooo punishable that it would deter others from trying.

   Third, I would start a MASSIVE propaganda program in Latin America (the good kind of propaganda) with vast quantities of information about how to LEGALLY get into the U.S. I’d make sure consulates had immigrant ombudsmen who would assist folks who wanted to immigrate here with the process. I’d declare a one-time general amnesty for people who’d been deported for illegal entry (but ONLY illegal entry — any other crime at home or abroad and no way), largely because it would be substantially expensive to enforce otherwise. Propaganda/prevention is much cheaper than enforcement, and would go a long way towards putting coyotes out of business. After the one-time amnesty, however, once the propaganda blitz had begun, illegal entry would be an absolute bar to legal immigration in the future (except, of course, in cases of asylum). Which would also, hopefully, make the better-informed immigrant-wannabes reluctant to work with coyotes.

   You’d probably also have to pump substantial aid into Mexico’s police, because the drug lords are currently winning the battle down there and that makes fertile ground for coyotes and terrified fleeing emigrants. Politicians, cops, and journalists who stand up to them are being not just murdered but put on display dead, medieval-fashion, so the muscle and publicity of America might be advisable to help cut down the drug lords and stem the flood of immigrants and drugs across the southern border.

8. Oh, and something that particularly annoys me in our immigration laws, though I understand the reason for it, is that we give preference to educated or wealthy immigrants. The most “valuable” immigrants to the U.S. (at least in terms of our national self-story) are the poor ones who come here and bust their asses. There are an awful lot of poor folks in Mexico and other places who only want to come here and BUST THEIR ASSES. They should be given a chance to do so. Maybe we do that by making a certain number of permanent slots available to guest workers who comply with all the guidelines of the program for five years, or something — an incentive to obey the laws and regulations of the guestworker visas. If you do so for five years, and avoid getting in legal trouble in the US or your home country, you get to bring your family to the US on a permanent visa.

   I mean, setting aside the law-breaking for a moment, people who want to come to America so badly they’ll risk their LIVES and work their asses off at shit jobs for little pay just for the opporunity to live here ARE THE KIND OF IMMIGRANTS WE WANT. That has “American dream” written all over it. So the smart thing is to create ways for those people to LEGALLY achieve that so they can do what most of our forefathers did, which is to come here and work shit jobs for low pay for the opportunity and privilege of being an American. It’s a good thing.

9. What ever happened to operation “return to sender” was the postage too high or something? If the government doesn’t seize this opportunity to nab illegals, then you know what the true agenda is…

10. They do have rights, the right to remain silent, and anything they do or say…..

11. I-Brows is correct….however….
    Whether these people are legal or illegal is of course the main issue. However, it is only part of the problem. How many from across the border [who hold shit jobs] pay taxes? How many refuse to learn or speak english [even as a ‘distant’ second language]???
    Moving into a foreign country, a cetain amount of assimilation is expected and required. In Texas, public and private schools require Spanish…for everyone! WHO IS BEING FORCED TO ASSIMILATE? I agree with I-Brows to a point. These people are breaking the LAW. Do we arrest each one, hold them in jail, take them before a judge, and in the end we find out what we already know…no green card. How clear is the Const on this?

12. “How clear is the Const on this?”

    On the requirement for due process of law for everyone under US jurisdiction for any reason? EXTREMELY.

13. Borders mean less n less in the global economy. It it time people wake up. We have the increasingly free movement of goods, services, money across borders, why should labor be any different? You all are hung up over a set of laws that are so deeply flawed.

    If IDOT put a stop sign in the middle of I-74, nowhere near an intersection, would you stop at it? Would you be bitching about the people not stopping or about the sign being so poorly placed? When it comes to immigration laws you all are bitching about the people not stopping. Meanwhile you all would be blowing the sign too.

    I was in Chicago for a few days back in January. It was the first time I spent any time there in 5 years. Five years ago everywhere you went the service help was primarily african american. The service poor, the attitudes awful but hey that is Chicago right? Four months ago the service help was primarily hispanic. The service was outstanding. The attitudes were of a hard working , we want to go somewhere, workforce. They all spoke english too, not that spanish would have bothered me. Indeed behind the counter it was all spanish, even the few non hispanics all spoke spanish too. That doesn’t bother me either. Linquistic diversity is a plus.

    I am with Eyebrows, where our flag flies American laws applies to everyone, equally, fairly, anything less is a disservice to our ideals. I would wager most of your immigrant ancestors would be considered ‘illegal’ under today’s rules too. Watch the laws being proposed carefully. The was some rep or senator who wanted to ensure that if your parents were not citizens you would not be a citizen either even if born here. Walk that back and you see problems. How many of you could prove your citizenship if an INS agent came to your door? Probably not many of you. Your drivers license would not be good enough, your birth certificate would not be good enough. By your ‘no rights’ logic, they could lock you away. Oh wait Bush already does that but that is another matter.

    You all need to check yourselves at the door and open your eyes. Those millions of hispanics have become essential to this economy. Whether they are legal or not, let us fix the immigration process. No ammount of positive PR is going to fix a system that is too bureaucratic, has hopelessly unrealistic quotas, which is such a burden that risking ones life in a desert is more attractive. You are forgetting that real lives are involved here. Waiting a few years, yes years , to see if you get a visa or a green card to get a job while you wait someplace where there are no job is not the sort of program that works.

    BTW… the quotas for 2008.. yes 2008 filled up in February. If you are a foreigner or an employer that needs to hire a foreigner, you are SOL for at least the next 24 months.

14. Mahkno,
    First, you wrongly assert that “…movement of goods, services, money across borders” is free. It is anything but for America. Every free trade agreement that America is entered into (unconstitutionally, btw) is not “free”. There is always a cost. America trades at a deficit with free trade status nations – more is imported than exported = jobs lost. These same treaties tell American corporations what and how much can be produced for exportation. America is even forced to rebate the import taxes to many of our allied nations (America has lost many cases regarding this issue in the WTO). I could go on.

    Next, I agree that immigration laws have become flawed, but more importantly the enforcement of those laws has become more flawed. We have these laws for reasons, security, economic stability, taxing of welfare and medical systems just to name a few. Work ethic does not matter because of the adjective ILLEGAL. Yeah, he killed those people, but he has a great work ethic when he is not breaking the law. Ludicrous! I agree “millions of [legal] Hispanics have become essential to this economy”, but the millions of illegal Hispanics, and others, have undermined every bit and more than has been added. According to the Center for Immigration Studies, illegals use $10.4 billion more in services than they contribute to the economy. I can argue the “we are all immigrants” issue at a later time.

    The problems start when people want to water down the meanings of our laws to suit their own desires. This has eroded the meaning and intent of our laws. And Eyebrows is correct about due process. Civil Rights only apply to citizens, except for the case of due process. She can debate this with me if she’d like.

15. Good gosh MAHKNO!

    Linguistic diversity is a plus! I am not against anyone speaking their native tongue, as long as they make every attempt to speak English. You must have never been to Texas, New Mexico, etc. These states are spending a fortune, not teaching these children English, but how to speak better Spanish! Big Mountain is correct, it is mandatory for all public school children in these areas to take Spanish after grade 6. PLEASE!!!!!!!! Who conforms here?
    If you are a ‘foreigner’ or an employer needing to hire a foreigner you “are SOL.”? Mahkno please! If you are an illegal alien you are out of here. And just who is the employer who hires these people really benefiting?

16. First, I don’t believe for a minute that illegals are “essential” to our economy. Brad is right, they are a burden on the economy.
    Second, I agree with Brad that “free” trade is anything but “free”. It is a continuing drain on this country, that will eventually lead to its downfall. You can’t keep shipping jobs and money out of the country forever. Eventually, you run out of money to ship out and you aren’t producing anything. To borrow a phrase, it’s the road to serfdom. Pardon my language, but this stuff about the “information economy” is pure B.S. You can’t eat, wear, live in or drive information. And don’t tell me that dictatorships like China are going to suddenly start importing U.S. goods to balance the trade deficit becuase they “have a stake in the world economy”. Again, sorry, but B.S. Not going to happen,folks. Once they have our technology and money, and they have produced enough weapons, we’re toast. Literally.

17. “And Eyebrows is correct about due process. Civil Rights only apply to citizens, except for the case of due process. She can debate this with me if she’d like.”

    I don’t really need to, since the Supreme Court is pretty clear that the First, Fifth, and Sixth Amendments, at the very least, apply to non-citizens within our jurisdiction as well. Or are we going to start arresting random Italian tourists for expressing opinions? But Due Process remains the important issue.

    ON a different note, you do all realize that linguistically, immigrants are assimilating as fast as or faster than they have in the past, right? That this whole, “They want to keep speaking Spanish!” is largely xenophobic fear-mongering? (Frankly, even if they WANTED to, the language of the internet is English, so English really has nothing to fear in its supremacy. I’ve read there are more English-speakers in China than native English speakers in the entire world.) Every fresh wave of immigrants has touched off a big “Oh nos! They won’t speak teh English! The country is doomed!” (Only I imagine that the Dutch in New Amsterdam were going “Oh nos! They won’t speak teh Dutch!”)

    The US is one of the very few countries in the world that’s stubbornly proud of its monolingualism. Being monolingual is a serious deficit in a global economy. As Willy Brandt said, “If I’m selling to you, I speak your language. If I’m buying, dann muessen Sie Deutsch sprechen [then you must speak German!]” If Americans want to remain globally competitive, foreign language skills are a must.

    (Sidelight: Americans are the only people who insist Jesus had to have spoken ONE language. There’s a pastoral literature in the US about talking to your congregation about Jesus’s language skills that doesn’t exist ANYWHERE else. Everyone else gets that Jesus spoke three easily (Scriptural Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic). Americans can barely encompass the concept of someone fluent in more than one language without years of study. It’s the worldwide NORM, people, not the exception!)

    The third generation of immigrants is historically and presently the generation that becomes monolingually English, so don’t worry, we’re crippling immigrant families in the multilingual global economy just as quickly as we’ve always done.

    (Also? How many of you have tried to learn a foreign language as an adult? IT’S FRIGGIN HARD. I realize I am not linguistically gifted, so it’s harder for me than for people who are so gifted, but it’s HARD, and I’m MOTIVATED and well-educated and have access to excellent learning-foreign-language resources — and barely functional (not even close to literate) in the languages I’ve tried for as an adult.)

18. I must add: I think there’s a certain legitimacy to complaints that non-English-speaking immigrants aren’t learning English “fast enough” in that the world moves much faster today than it did when agriculture was our primary national industry. Taking three generations to learn English in an agricultural society is very different from taking three generations in a fast-moving, 24-hour “information society.”

    But an awful lot of it is still just xenophobic rhetoric. Adults can only learn a foreign language so fast, and many of us are simply limited by our mental equiptment. Unless you can find a way to overclock the brain ….

19. I-Brows,
    This has little to do with fear mongering [or any type of mongering]. Do not confuse my desire for Americans to become multi-lingual…with my desire for these ‘immigrants’ to become at LEAST bi-lingual. AGAIN, you have obviously never been to southern states, where even providing health care for ‘immigrants’ who refuse to speak or write in English is a problem. Finally,I have no problem with Italian tourists wanting to express their opinion! They are here legally!!!!!!

20. Just ban tortillas. They’ll leave.

21. Eyebrows, I agree with your opinon on the “coyotes” – they are reprehensible. But we also need to deal with the U.S. companies that are hiring illegals and perpetuating the problem. I am always surprised that we don’t hear more from our labor unions about this issue; after all, the employers hire the illegals in part to increase their profits and bypass the FLSA and minimum wage requirements.

    We all are concerned about the crime on our streets and the “underground economy” that revolves around the drug trade, but an argument can be made that the work performed by illegals at significantly lower pay rates is causing our unskilled, undereducated citizen workers from gaining employment. When people cannot find employment and they have to exist, working “off the books” is pretty appealing.

22. “Finally,I have no problem with Italian tourists wanting to express their opinion! They are here legally!!!!!!”

    How do you know? The number one way for immigrants stay in the U.S. ‘illegally’ is to overstay one’s ‘tourist visa’.

    Indeed if it was a European you probably wouldn’t bat an eye at whether they were legel or not.

23. “I am always surprised that we don’t hear more from our labor unions about this issue; after all, the employers hire the illegals in part to increase their profits and bypass the FLSA and minimum wage requirements.”

    Maybe because it isn’t true? These ‘illegals’ are getting paychecks, with withholding.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18077009/

    7.9 million W-2s with unmatching SSNs. There are estimated 12 million illegals. Now… it is possible to get a valid SSN and end up being illegal too. You can and must get a SSN with a student VISA (the second most common way to overstay your visit). Once you have that SSN you are golden. So this whole ‘the illegals are not paying taxes’ does not wash. Now as the article points out they haven’t been filing returns. Of course the article also neglects to identify how many U.S. citizens neglect to file returns too. Filing a return isn’t the same as paying taxes. It is more of an audit process to see if you paid enough or not over the last year.

24. Brad,

    When one speaks of ‘Free Trade’ it is in reference to tarrifs, duties, paperwork… or more specifically the direct cost of the goods in transit and the time it takes to get from point A to point B. The system isn’t perfect and is rife with politics for all countries concerned. Compared to fifty years ago, the speed in which goods could enter and exit a country and the costs associated with that traffic, is considerably lower and thus termed ‘freer’.

    Now you bring of trade surpluses and deficits. That really has little to do with immigration and more to do with dollar valuation. Making a DVD player in China isn’t cheaper per se, relative to the Chinese market but when adjusted for currency valuation when it is exported to the U.S. it suddenly becomes a lot cheaper. Those costs are not staying down. Salaries are skyrocketing in China. Indeed Mexico is experiencing outsourcing of its own.

    If you have not done so, you should read Friedman’s the World is Flat.

25. “it is mandatory for all public school children in these areas to take Spanish after grade 6.”

    Grade 6? We should begin teaching Spanish in First Grade. In sixth, we should be adding a third language.

    As to the hospital and it’s difficulties. If you conduct business in a bilingual environment, it behoves you to hire people who are bilingual. The problem is with the hospital not the patients.

26. Hey M: Do we have 12 million Europeans here illegally causing all kinds of problems and draining our social support systems?

27. Mahkno,
    Are you F*****g serious? Because of these illegal immigrants, my child is forced to take a foreign language he does not want to learn? When he was told he had to take Spanish he said he preferred to take French, only to be told other foreign languages would not be offered until high school.
    Please consider your words carefully. Hospitals across the country are constantly experiencing shortages of qualified personal. Forget the intesive training, state board exams, etc. these techs have to take. Now, you feel they should be forced to learn Spanish because of people who cannot or will not learn the freaking language? Good God man! Let’s ban everyone in the medical field who does not speak Spanish as a 2nd [or third] language from working in a hospital anywhere in the southwest!!!!
    Last, I am sure that any large population of illeagal immigrants, from ANYWHERE [Europe or not] would receive the same treatment.

28. Sorry for type/spelling-errors.

29. Global economy. Yes, it is important to learn & know more than one language. But from my point of view, that is more for business or pleasure purposes. The last time I was in Germany, German was still the dominant language. What do I mean by dominant? Any sign, directory, etc. was in LARGE GERMAN PRINT and every other language was in near squirt size font below it. You know what that tells me? While we appreciate you being in our country for whatever reason, GERMAN is still the main language here and we’ll help you along a bit. But if you want to make it easier on yourself, learn GERMAN!! Been to Lowes lately? I can’t tell if I’m in the United States or a Spanish speaking country because a lot of signs, etc. display Spanish as prominently as English. Why is this? Was it done for all the Germans, Poles, Dutch, Swedes, etc. that have come to this country in the last century? No. If traffic signs come to this Lowe-ism, I won’t be able to decipher what I’m reading fast enough and I’m sure to crunch someone trying to figure out what the hell the sign said. This has nothing to do with global economy. It has everything with being too damned PC in this country not to offend anyone. And speaking of coming to this country, my father came from Germany in 1952. He worked two years at a crap job (like quite a few Hispanics do today), because he couldn’t speak the English language which forced him to learn ENGLISH. NOT the other way around. He became a US citizen. He served two years in the US Army. He learned a skilled trade that made him sought out in this area. He married my mom in ’59. Notice he didn’t marry mom to become a US citizen. Yes, yes, yes, there aren’t as many legal opportunities due to how many “applying for citizenship” applications are available every year, but ya know, I bet that is for a reason, ya think?

    OTOH, when I was in culinary school, a classmate of mine wanted to go work in Australia for a few months for an externship. Because the unemployment rate in Australia was over a certain percentage at the time, he was denied as he was told it would take away a job from an Australian citizen. Now THAT is policy.

30. america is under the NWO. wow some of you should be bloging your responses. It is hard to read the responses when they are many times the length of the original article. illegal’s due process? what happened to be a citezen of the Republic of the USA? is that as punishable as being an illegal? I have an article about illegals I want you all to read at my meager little blog-(non commercial)

31. Mahkno,
    I used your comparison of “freer trade” and labor (illegal immigrants working for substandard pay) to make my point that both cost the U.S. Taxpayer more than either program(?) help the economy. Did you know that before 1913, the only way the federal government had to fund itself (except in time of war) was through tariffs and excise taxes? Every time a tariff is reduced, that burden is shifted to the U.S. Taxpayer. Just like illegals cost the U.S. Taxpayer. Or we could just go for flat out Socialism and end the debate.

    I will look at the suggested reading and let you know what I think.

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