Parents, teachers, and other concerned citizens will be protesting at 5:30 tonight in front of the District 150 administration building on Wisconsin. They’ll be protesting against plans to close schools — especially a high school yet to be named — in order to plug the district’s budget gap. Also scheduled tonight is a public hearing on the district’s plans to issue $38 million in bonds. A revised estimate by the district indicates that this bond issuance will raise property taxes 23 cents (down from 25 cents in an earlier estimate) per $100 equalized assessed valuation.
District 150 Superintendent Ken Hinton was on WTVP’s “At Issue” Thursday night (replayed Sunday afternoon) along with the superintendent of Normal District 5. A few comments I found most interesting:
- Hinton stated that he’s been looking at reducing administrative staff “all along,” and that he’s planning to eliminate vice principals. Then he made some equivocal comment that he might not be able to do that this year because of school closures increasing the enrollment at remaining schools.
- Hinton said that, contrary to popular belief, the district is not top-heavy with administrators, and that he hopes that any administrative positions eliminated now will just be temporary — i.e., that they’ll be able to add those positions back eventually.
- While he declined to get more specific, Hinton said that “the two schools will be combined.” So, as predicted, it sounds like Manual is safe from closure, and that the district is still looking to combine Central and Woodruff. It’s just a question of which building will house them.
- Hinton also said they are looking at establishing an alternative school, but didn’t give any specifics other than this one would be bigger than ones they’ve had in the past.
- Hinton said the new Glen Oak campus is “on the small side” — only 12 acres, whereas the Harrison school campus is 22 acres. When H Wayne Wilson asked him if that was kind of big, Hinton responded, “that’s what they all should be.” He said the research shows that “the outdoors” is important to education — that it increases test scores and makes kids less aggressive. I’ve mentioned this before, but it’s worth repeating: Sterling Middle School has a 26-acre campus — larger than even the new Harrison School campus — yet their test scores are abysmal, and the school was the site of a brutal beating of a boy on the basketball court in 2006. There is no evidence that increased acreage improves student achievement; that theory has been debunked many times, yet Hinton still clings to it, citing district consultant Dr. Judy Helm as his only source.
On a side note, I wish WTVP would put the latest “At Issue” programs up on its website. The last one they have up is from February. I’d like to watch the show again, since I missed the beginning of it both times it aired.
“There is no evidence that increased acreage improves student achievement; that theory has been debunked many times, yet Hinton still clings to it, citing district consultant Dr. Judy Helm as his only source.”
I have seen good data to support this claim (though before I was school boarding so of course not on hand, as I was only interested in passing) … but it requires a strong outdoor education curriculum (typically tied into science classes). Not just “some green stuff outside the school.” (Although there’s at least some evidence that greenery reduces crime in public settings generally. Alex Kotlowitz cites to it in some of his books, IIRC. Might also be in Freakonomics.)
But it’s not a magic bullet that fixes test scores by just existing.
CJ, I enjoy your blog site(and some of the others)but I think the comment on the individual getting severely beaten on the basketball court had nothing to do with the school’s expansive acreage or District 150 other than these kids simply being on the property after school hours when the incident happened. That would be like saying finding the dead young woman’s body behind Sterling School would somehow be tied to the size of Sterling School’s yard, too. District 150 has many problems as you do a good job of pointing out…CJ…but the blogs really don’t need to PILE ON by adding on to their problems with obtuse information.
Outsidethebox — I thought the youths in question were Sterling students. You’re saying they weren’t? If that’s the case, then I’ll retract the statement. No intent to pile on.
“Hinton said that, contrary to popular belief, the district is not top-heavy with administrators”
because they are all “light weights”? They really don’t do anything there, they mostly stay home and collect their checks?
Where oh where did I read the information regarding the administrator to student ratio??
Ken Hinton also said that Washington Gifted was a K-8 school – like Roosevelt. I turned it off when he said his first “it’s all about the children.”
I am sure “Hinton” is not counting his full time consultants as “administrators”.
teachingrocks – It is in the school report cards on the districts own website. And serenity is right, those stats don’t include the numerous “consultants” and “retired-rehireds” that are paid through Accounts payable rather than Payroll.
Da Nile is not just a River in Egypt that’s for sure.
I saw a post somewhere which compared our district to other districts. Someone was talking about it last night at Godfathers. I am trying to find the information to include in my rant for tonight. Any idea where that is?
“Sterling Middle School has a 26-acre campus ” Yes a large outdoors helps but only if you use it. Those 26 acres go largely unused. I have driven by during ‘recess’. It’s a bunch a kids standing around bored. A far cry from the recesses I experienced with organized kickball games and massive everyone in soccer games.
Thanks, Diane. I looked at the report card and those numbers are what I need. I can’t believe I searched through tons of posts on blogs and it was right there. Grrrr
The article about the alternate school on Knoxville indicated approximately 60 students. What is the cost per student to operate such a small school?
Also, all teachers, adminstrators and board members have talked about a vocational school for 15 years. It appears to still be all talk.
See my blog on vocational education later today.
I guess we’ll have to wait to see how all the greenery around the new Glen Oak and the new Harrison will be utilized–which will be too late for changing minds and costs if the green space isn’t really a cureall. Right now I’m most interested in knowing about the cost of landscaping and maintaining the green space. When the district can’t afford to have sufficient teachers, cafeteria workers, and custodians for what goes on inside the building, how can they pay for personnel to work outside?
teachingrocks:
Here is the info you are looking for:
Chicago Public Schools District which is a LARGE size district
http://iirc.niu.edu/District.aspx?source=About%20Educators&source2=Administrator%20Information&districtID=15016299025&level=D
In 2008 Chicago Public Schools had 255 Students to every 1 Admin.
In 2007 Chicago PUblic Schools had 360 Students to every 1 Admin
Peoria Public Schools District which is a LARGE size district
http://iirc.niu.edu/District.aspx?source=About%20Educators&source2=Administrator%20Information&districtID=48072150025&level=D
In 2008 Peoria had 168 Students to every 1 Admin.
In 2007 Peoria had 163 Students to every 1 Admin.
These figures DO NOT INCLUDE substantial amounts of money ($500 per day) paid by Peoria Public Schools to numerous consultants and retired re-hired contract administrators that are not paid through regular payroll.
That translates to Peoria Public Schools had 35% more Administrators in 2008 than comparable LARGE DISTRICTS in the state of Illinois. However, in 2007 Peoria Public Schools had a whopping 55% more Admins that other Illinois large-sized districts.
That figure would be much higher if they put their consultants and retired re-hireds on the payroll as well. Now you know why they don’t.
Is it any wonder they are saying now they have to close schools and increase class sizes? Where is the B of E oversight!
Someone please check my percentages.
teachingrocks,
I have run the numbers on adminstrator/student ratios. D150’s ratio is (was) 1/168.1 using the state numbers. That would equal 81 administrative positions.
D150 reports 123 administrators and 4 consultant (not counted as admin. Other employees paid from other sources (per diane) are not counted. D150 listed 35 principals, 13 asst. principals and 7 deans as part of the adminstration numbers. Taking those numbers out of the equation left 68 positions in central admin. (This also does not count staff, assistant directors, etc. associated with those positions.)
So, to be more than fair, let’s use the 68 number. That number (central admin) would represent a 1/200 ratio. The state average is 1/211.6 (without consultants and others.) Unit 5 in Bloomington/Normal has a 1/296 ratio. It is a similar size to D150. The other district in that area, Central Bloomington 87, has a ratio of 1/236. They are less than half the size of D150. Rockford IL (twice as big, with similarly challenged schools) has a 1/239 ratio and Chicago has a 1/255 ratio.
If we used those numbers for D150, it looks like (rounded off):
1/212 = 64 administrators (-4 difference)
1/296 = 46 administrators (-22 difference)
1/236 = 57 administrators (-11 difference)
1/239 = 58 administrators (-10 difference)
1/255 = 53 administrators (-15 difference)
Some of these numbers can be accounted for because of the efficiency gained with larger numbers, but D150 IS top-heavy, even using the smaller 68 number, for districts their size and well above the state average. It is insanely top-heavy using their number of 123, which would result in a ratio of 1/110!
How much could they save? Average the salaries at $100,000 for the sake of ease. It’s probably higher. Then add in the cost of perks, benefits, bonuses, taxes, office costs including staff, and you have some serious money.
4 positions x $100,000 = $400,000/yr plus other costs.
22 positions x $100,000 = $2,200,000/yr plus other costs.
11 positions x $100,000 = $1,100,000/yr plus other costs.
10 positions x $100,000 = $1,000,000/yr plus other costs.
15 positions x $100,000 = $1,500,000/yr plus other costs.
Hinton is on the record as saying the district is NOT top heavy with administrators, that he plans to cut assistant principals (admin but not central admin) and that he wants to add back every position he eliminates.
Have fun!
Seems to me if the BoE wants to “right-size” the district, (one of their rationales for closing schools) they should start by “right-sizing” the administration. This is not about whether or not people are good at their jobs; it is whether we can “afford” those jobs. DWolfmeyer said that what they were doing in closing schools was NOT in the best interests of the students but it “had to be done” to be financially responsible. I would make the same argument about central admin. In fact, that should have been and still should be where major cuts BEGIN. If it “has to be done” it “has to be done” on Wisconsin. And the numbers PROVE it. If they can cite class size numbers and high school enrollment numbers, we can cite admin/student ratios.
What’s good for one side is good for the other. If they want to live and die on numbers and ignore larger considerations like student achievement, best practices, data-driven research and neighborhood issues, then let them live and die on the admin numbers. There are TOO MANY central administrators and the numbers make the case.
I chose Chicago Public Schools because it was a large sized (By state definition) URBAN District with a high percentage of students in poverty. Comparing D150 to say, Naperville, might not be comparing apples to apples.
More numbers (I can’t be there tonight so feel free to use these and those above. If they are wrong –they’re not–you can blame me.)
If D150 reports 123 admin positions, and a 1/168 ratio, that would equal a school district of 20,664 students,, which is way higher than the real number of students.
So either their ratio is wrong or the numbers are being changed to suit whatever will benefit them. As I wrote before, even taking out all the in-school admins, the district’s admin numbers are high. And using current student numbers, a 1/168 ratio is 81 adminisrative positions. That number doesn’t jibe with either the 123 total admin or the 68 central admin numbers. So…. when the numbers don’t add up, someone is playing with the numbers.
First, the statement that Washington Gifted is a K-8 environment. When did that change? Historically, they were either 4-8 or 5-8 – never the lower primary grades. Anyone have any info on that?
Second, when looking at the administrator/student ratios, let’s not forget how many NEW administrative positions Hinton added – the Mary Davis position and the Internal Auditor position are just two of the most recent.
Also, don’t forget that for this statistical purpose, “administrators” represent both instructional and operational staff. Many of these positions are housed outside of central administration at Ricketts, Bldgs & Grounds, Transportation, Medicaid, the old Social Security Bldg, etc. Take a look at the administrative staff assigned to Bldgs & Grounds and Transportation and you will see where some of the extra administrative staff is.
Just checked the D150 website for Washington Gifted. It is classified as a “Middle School” and is a grade 5-8 environment.
If Hinton doesn’t even know what grade levels attend this school, how can anyone have any confidence in him whatsoever to close and combine schools, let alone lead the district out if its financial mess. Unbelievable!
Good Lord!
CJ…thanks for answering. I don’t know if the kids that beat up another kid were Sterling students or not and I certainly don’t expect you to retract anything. You are a well thought out person. My point is, I do know the incident happened after school hours either in an evening or on a weekend. And at that point District 150 shouldn’t have to be “legally” responsible for kids behavior once they are back to their “parents/guardian” oversight(That would be a whole different blog subject for another day). I was just suggesting keeping the enormous problems of “150” within the arena they are charged with being responsible for, and as you well know, that’s quite an enormous task in itself.
As for the outside acerage I personally believe we do need adequate outdoors exercise areas. But they should be structured times and benefit the students. Develop the mind and the body and not all students can go out for sports. So structured recess should be used. From what I can tell they don’t do that anymore. The kids stand around in little groups making faces and calling each other names. No one gets proper exercise and therefore the outside space is a waste of taxpayers money and a waste to the wellbeing of the students. Bring the old traditional recess structured/supervised play back and help balance our kids both inside as well as outside. But we don’t need huge outdoor campuses to do that.
I heard that Davis, Broderick and Hinton were all served with summons today in the McAardle case. Did anyone else hear that?
teachingrocks:
I also ran those student/admin ratios and posted it on PeoriaRocks. (commenting on McArdle) To be completely fair, there is one school district that no one, myself included, has thus reported on – Springfield. The district is very similarly sized and I believe has other socio-economic similarities. However, it has an even worse student/admin ratio than Peoria at 136/1 compared to Peoria’s 168/1 – perhaps this is because Springfield has 100% true salaried administrators instead of contracted, off-payroll, consultants. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Springfield student/admin ratio is an example Hinton would cite to justify his belief that Peoria is not top heavy administratively.
In any event, Springfield spends an average of only $10,065 per student, compared to Peoria’s $11,383 – thus they are seemingly more efficiently educating their students despite having a relatively top heavy administration.
I agree with Hot in the City that it looks like someone is playing with the numbers. One can cite various data to support two completely different opinions. I would try and keep it simple. I would try not to get caught up in off-payroll consultants issues and the like. Using the State Report Card figures, Peoria has much more administration than the state average, than either Bloomington district, than Rockford and Chicago.
Further, those other districts have an operating expense per child less than $10k, compared to the $11,383 of Peoria (other than Chicago, which is $11,033, despite the obvious and documented higher cost of teacher salaries for the much higher cost of living).
Pretty much any way you cut it, from a numbers standpoint, Peoria 150 is financially underperforming.
When Washington Gifted School was first established during the 1966 School Year (approx) it was housed at the old Lincoln on Moss. At that time the Gifted portion of the school took over the upstairs and the neighborhood children attended in the basement. So there were K-8 students. However, these children were sent to different schools and the Gifted program accepted 60 students for each grade 4-8. When the district went to the Middle School concept, Washington School became a Middle School 5-8! There are still accepted each year 60 students from across the district…supposedly.
After watching the school board meeting tonight….I became very concerned. After all the presentations from the community, not one board member addressed the superintendent if in fact he did have a plan. Does he know where the students will be attending school next year. Also the president of the teachers’ union did not even ask…WOW!! We did learn that a consultant and an associate superintendent were working on teacher transfers.
Does anyone want to see if we can get enough signatures to put this bond issue to a vote?
Jon
I honestly think the consultants are the real issue…I think we have at least four earning more than 300 perday! I would guess they are not included in the adminstrative/student ratio. Also remember that when the Hinton administration came into power…we had three superintendents….one wasn’t qualified so we paid two more. And to think that our illustrious superintendent that we have now does not even live in Peoria…a first. He pays his taxes to Mapleton….
Instead of comparing the number of administrators in 150 to the number in other districts, maybe we should be comparing the total amount of money spent on those with administrative duties (including consultants) to the amount of money spent on administrators in other districts. It really is about money, not about the number of administrators.
Kpower: Yes, on the way home from the BOE meeting, Karen and I continually came back to the thought that not one BOE member questioned Hinton about “the plan” even though the lack of a plan was mentioned by several speakers.
Has anyone been keeping track of all the times Hinton has promised to get back to BOE with information they have suggested. Last BOE meeting such a promise was made to Ross; tonight I think Hinton made two such promises to Jim and one was made to Parker by Butts, I believe. I guess we never get to know if the promises were kept or not. I guess we have to FOIA the results of their requests–when they ask the right questions.
The consultants are likely part of the problem, but to that end we don’t know the details. What we do know is what is stated in the Report Cards and that alone shows a significant problem on student/administrator levels – I previously estimated anywhere from $2-4MM annually. The consultants would only add to that expense.
As far as comparing money on “administrative duties”, again, it is an issue of what we know and what we don’t, not only about district 150, but about the comparable districts as well. Part of the purpose of the School Report Cards is to standardize the results across the state. It’s not perfect, but in this case, it shows a problem with the ratios, which in turn allows you to estimate the excess spending, much as Hot in the City did above. Add to excess ratio the average operating cost per student result and it’s difficult to justify those ratios.
It would be interesting to know the facilities costs across districts, but again that is difficult information to come by, let alone decipher. I at least wonder what the occupancy numbers and ratios are. For simplicity, if four high schools each could hold 1,000 students, but each only had 700, for a total of 2,800, from a purely financial efficiency standpoint, you would be better off having just 3 schools. (unless you expected total student population to increase).
This all goes back to the plan, or lack thereof, of who is going to attend what school.
In any event, while I personally suspect that it is financially necessary to close some schools, it would seem to me that the administrator level is a much lower hanging fruit that should be implemented long before closing schools is discussed.
steve weibring says
why doesn’t the city collect the money from the departments under then, their a secret rule to go out and spend the excess funds for anything. why not collect the excuess funds for the school now.
For instance one year on department bought 8 or 10 nec color monitors, just to waste taxpayer money
see that money could go to the schools
C.J. – I am interested in learning more about the continuing efforts, if any, on the development of a math and science charter school. Do you have any info on this subject? Does anyone know if a District consultant is charged with responsibility for leading this effort? I seem to remember that it was Dr. Fischer? The ISBE provides grants for the planning and implementation. Is this individual’s salary being paid from such grant money?
A PJS article back in 2008, stated that District officials were responsible for creating a “request for proposal” but it would be an “outside group” that would apply to the District to actually run with the idea. Does any have information on what group that might be?
http://www.pjstar.com/archive/x1507910170/District-150-works-on-charter-school
I am interested in learning more about the continuing efforts, if any, on the development of a math and science charter school. Does anyone have any info on this subject? Does anyone know if a District consultant is charged with responsibility for leading this effort? I seem to remember that it was Dr. Fischer? The ISBE provides grants for the planning and implementation. Is this individual’s salary being paid from such grant money?
A PJS article back in 2008, stated that District officials were responsible for creating a “request for proposal” but it would be an “outside group” that would apply to the District to actually run with the idea. Does any have information on what group that might be?
http://www.pjstar.com/archive/x1507910170/District-150-works-on-charter-school
Frusrated – Come to next Monday’s committee of the whole. It will be the featured topic.
Jon: That was the post I was thinking about and trying to find earlier yesterday! I knew I had seen those numbers somewhere in a blog comment! I wound up just using the 168/1 number from the report card. I wasn’t able to go to the board meeting last night. Someone just read what I had written. How did it go?
kpower: “After watching the school board meeting tonight….I became very concerned. After all the presentations from the community, not one board member addressed the superintendent if in fact he did have a plan. Does he know where the students will be attending school next year. Also the president of the teachers’ union did not even ask…WOW!! We did learn that a consultant and an associate superintendent were working on teacher transfers.”
I know some of you are starting to get this… they don’t give a hang about the kids. Of course they will discuss teacher transfers and contracts and buildings and EVERYTHING except the kids. They are bureaucrats… they care only about keeping the money coming in… their “botto0m line”.
Welcome back Jim Stowell! Any comment about Lindbergh, credit cards or Administrators being paid to leave?
Who can explain “committee meetings of the whole”…Was it announced at the meeting last night? I must have missed it…What time when where….How many of these occur…Who is invited….What is the purpose over a regular Meeting of the whole….Does the “whole” mean board and all administrators. exclusive or inclusive, Is it a time when the public can interact with board members…Lots of questions…Does anyone have any answers!!!!
Lots of questions…Does anyone have any answers!!!!
Yes, Ms (or Mr.) Kpower – I can tell you at this time that I can get you that information.
Obviously, Frustrated has been invited–because she did express an interest in what is going on with the charter school. I believe Jim has already stated–maybe on another blog–that the progress on that school has probably been set back at least a year. I’m still trying to figure out who was invited and how they received the invitation to the meeting when the board voted to terminate McArdle’s contract. It appears that some Lindbergh parents received a “personal” invitation–I’m wondering if all parents–or just a select few–were invited.
Let me be clearer. I CAN get you that information but I won’t. I will only make you THINK that I will get you that information but you should realize by now that I have no intention of getting you that information. I ony want you to THINK I am getting you that information, so by the time it is too late to do anything about it you will forget you even asked for it. It works for the board members. I am sooooo clever.
Does anybody remember any of the questions that board members have asked recently–the questions that Hinton has promised to answer ASAP? I know Martha asked one two weeks ago and Jim asked two last night. Please provide that information if any of you recall the questions. Jim? I think your questions were about Title I teachers and administrative salaries.
If outdoor space is so beneficial, why did the Glen Oak school location with the most access to outside resources get ixnayed? Surely having that access would have made sense to the science department and the literature teachers, but it’s done now. Obviously our experts and councilfolks didn’t buy into the theory.
If Hinton would have done a proper campaign and educated people about the benefits of a school being near the park, more people may have listened. However, he went behind people’s back and started plans and buying houses with total disregard to the community. Hinton just does not get it.
Does anyone have any information on the Committee of the Whole? By the way kids need to have time to be outdoors….our day is so short it is almost impossible to get all the required educational minutes covered in a day’s time. Whoever stated the fact that Sterling campus for the most part is used more during the summer by the Park District than the School District.
In the US House of Reps Com of the Whole is the entire house sitting as a committee. Votes taken are not binding and attribution is very minimal. They have to reform into the House of Reps to take binding action. I assume the PSD Board is in a similar vein
If everryone is so concerned and frustrated why isn’t any of this on the airwaves? We have tried and tried for years to understaned the 150 administrators and their way of thinking to no avail. We have gone to their public meetings and listened to their speeches about “it’s all about the children”. But when it comes right down to it no matter what they say whatever the issue is the decision has all ready been made because they don’t listen to what the public has to say they never have. At least not the ones that oppose their ideas. I’m tired of the secrets, the behind closed door meetings and as is obvious protecting each others backs. And they want to raise taxes again GOOD LORD!! How about they cut the fat and their own salaries and work with that. Why aren’t people up in arms!!Why is everyone so EMPATHETIC! Why in blue blazes is Mary Davis still working for our school district with the charges that have been brought against her?! Why the heck would we want a possible future Superintendentthat has had those charges brought against her?! Who is beeing paid off in this District because the way things look that is the only assumption that any one could make.
KCDAD you are so correct! Our children and their education have totally been put on the back burner.
Bewildered if you get any answers to your questions please share!
It takes me approximately 48 hours to re-group after a BOE meeting.
I haven’t seen it anywhere on the blogs, but there is supposed to be a group of people that will be going to the city council meeting to night to address them?
DebbieB: No one is going to the City Council tonight–several had planned to do so, but there will be no audience questions tonight–special meeting, I guess, to say good-bye to Manning, etc.
Can anyone speak at the Committee of the Whole? Is the meeting at the Administration Building? What time? DebbieB….I am convinced that at the most we have two board members who truly care about our children…Lip service gets us nowhere. I was appalled once again after last night’s meeting that noone could tell us exactly where Kingman or Tyng School children would be attending. I honestly believe that we could walk the Kingman community and some parents are still not aware of the closing of Kingman. Several board members and admnistrators would say it is the parents’ fault. The board and administration owe these parents and children every opportunity they can deliver not verbal abuse on the telephone from secretaries at the administration building.
Once again just to remind everyone…KH does not live in Peoria…
I help assist with Woodruff JFL. A lot of our players are students at Kingman. I made the same comment to a friend the other night, “we could walk within the Kingman boundries and we would be shocked at how many parents don’t realize that this is the last year that Kingman will be open.” Our children deserve to know their destiny. I am just sick over all of this! I should be skinny by now 🙂