123 thoughts on “League of Women Voters to host charter school debate”

1. I would expect the IFT union’s view to be consistent with that of the American Federation of Teacher’s (of which the IFT is affiliated) official view on charter schools:

   “The American Federation of Teachers strongly supports charter schools that embody the core values of public education and a democratic society: equal access for all students; high academic standards; accountability to parents and the public; a curriculum that promotes good citizenship; a commitment to helping all public schools improve; and a commitment to the employees’ right to freely choose union representation.”

   In other words, it sounds like they would “strongly support” this charter school.

   For an interesting article on charter schools and unionization, see:

   http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/27/education/27charter.html

2. So charter schools are one size fits all? I admit that as a teacher and union supporter I am probably going to be against charter schools, in general. That’s just my bias in the same way that the opposing view is the bias of others. However, it seems that there are some–who would ordinarily support charter schools–who are a bit leery of this particular charter school. So maybe it’s a matter requiring more discernment than just pro vs. anti-charter school. Jon, the reason for the IFT’s position as stated above (stated with some qualifying “ifs,” especially the last qualifier) is that charter school teachers can choose to be unionized, so the IFT certainly isn’t going to discourage that possibility. In the end, I believe there will be a charter school, and that it will be up to parents to decide whether or not to send their children–and then to decide if they made the right choice. That will all play out and we will all watch write on the blogs about it.

3. Sharon, I never said charter schools are one size fits all. I said the IFT would presumably support THIS charter school, after reading the AFT stated core values – all of which THIS charter school seem to embody. Do you think THIS charter school does not meet those core values?

4. Jon, I guess I was too subtle–you didn’t notice the if there is a ” commitment to the employees’ right to freely choose union representation.” Have you heard Glen Barton or any of the rest of the group suggesting that this charter school will have a commitment to union representation? Agree or disagree, for a union, that’s a big deal–so I don’t think PFT members will be going against the AFT if they oppose this charter school. You presume too much–and you knew that–you were just playing some games. Right. 🙂 Of course, I believe the union has legitimate reasons (not related to teachers’ representation, etc.) for opposing the charter school. And that again is a bias that we are permitted to have in this free country of ours. I hope that–even if you find unions distasteful now–you can look into history long enough to respect the good they did for workers who were treated very, very badly in this country’s early history. I will even grant you that the pendulum may have swung too far in the other direction, but I would hate to see the day that we have to repeat history by starting all over–we seem headed in that direction. I am willing to bet that most of us have relatives (or ancestors) who benefited greatly from the unionization of America’s workers. Try to remember their struggles before you encourage one more step to destroy unions–even if it is just a teachers’ union.

5. My better judgment tells me to just drop this, but I don’t like being accused of encouraging “one more step to destroy unions”, or thought to “find unions distasteful now”, or even assumed to not understand their role in history.

   Yes – I think tenure is a bad idea for schools in that it protects crappy tenured teachers at the expense of better non-tenured teachers. Sure, it has benefits to teachers, allowing them to be able to speak more freely about problems within schools and providing a higher sense of security. I feel the negatives outweigh the positives. I don’t blame teachers for wanting tenure – I am disappointed in management for accepting tenure. I hardly want to “destroy unions” or find them “distasteful”.

   Now, as for the AFT, one of the stated core values is the commitment to the RIGHT to freely choose union representation. But Sharon states, “Have you heard Glen Barton or any of the rest of the group suggesting that this charter school will have a commitment to union representation?” Shouldn’t the question be have you heard any of the group suggest that the employees will NOT have the RIGHT to freely choose union representation?

   Sure, I was being a little tongue in cheek suggesting that the IFT will follow exactly what the larger, affiliated AFT believes with respect to charter schools. But I also find it interesting that the AFT “strongly supports” charter schools – and that the AFT has long held that opinion (since at least 1988). Their position has been that charter schools are good sources of innovation and can empower teachers in a school’s decision-making process. Naturally they want to help those who are non-union join the unionized ranks if they so desire. Similarly though, I’m sure that the applicable union would want to unionize sweatshops – but I doubt that they would “strongly support” sweatshops.

6. We asked about union representation at the Uplands meeting. Dr. Fischer said that the teachers are free to organize a union if they want, but they can’t belong to the District 150 union.

7. Jon, there’s is reason to drop it as long as the dialogue as long as it is civil–and it is, I think. About tenure, etc. So far all public school teachers have to be certified and I’m still not certain about what percentage of Peoria’s charter school teachers will have to be certified. I don’t think things have changed much in that I don’t think beginning teachers think much about unions–in fact, they aren’t protected by unions until their fourth year. My guess is that most certified teachers, given a choice would prefer to have the protection of the union. Hence, I believe the record so far shows considerable turnover of teachers in charter schools. Right now Manual is suffering because the administration chose to hire mostly non-tenured teachers. These teachers have no reason to stay put, so to speak, if they are the least bit unhappy with their jobs–and a record number are leaving. That kind of turnover is not good for a school. In fact, it might be a bigger detriment than the other alternative. Of course, when I started teaching there wasn’t a “closed shop” union–there were two competing groups and many of us (including me) didn’t belong to either. It took me a long time to “like” the idea of unions. My turning point came in the 1980s, I believe. It happened when the high schools went from a 7-hour day to a 6-hour day. Obviously, teachers had to be let go–the whole purpose of shortening the number of hours. At the high school level, many teachers of elective courses were dropped because courses such as psychology, sociology, many home ec and industrial courses were dropped. Each department had to lose, at least, one teacher. There were no seniority rules in the district at the time (with regard to involuntary transfers). Our principal was allowed to set up his own criteria as to which teachers would be transferred. He chose “paid” extra-curricular activities as the deciding factor–I was safe because I had just taken over the school newspaper. A friend of mine was transferred to middle school. She was the head of the Social Studies Department, she had a master’s degree in her subject matter, she was the senior member of her department (probably not 50 yet), she was in charge of National Honor Society (not a paid position), and she and her husband came to Manual for activities every time the doors opened at night. She was transferred because, of course, everybody else in her department was a “paid” athletic coach–I don’t think any of them had a master’s in their subject matter. (A few years later she received a transfer to Peoria High). That’s when I decided that joining the union was a good idea. I believe I am correct in stating that it was during Terry’s presidency that a seniority for transfer rule was instituted. At the end of my career, I started speaking out about problems at Manual (especially, at Manual)–which I would never have done without union protection–actually, I started that because I didn’t want Jeff, who had just received tenure, to go that route alone. I taught school for 43 years. What I discovered is that the teachers who are totally unfit for teaching get out very early in their careers–of their own volition. I guess all of you (or your children) must have had some very lousy teachers and that you blame the union for them. Looking back, I believe I had some bad high school teachers who taught for many, many years–and, in those years, there was no union to protect them. However, I don’t believe I suffered that much for having endured their classes. Too bad there isn’t a way to get rid of bad administrators. No wonder principals don’t try to buck the system–if they complain about the central administration they can be gone in a instant. Central administrators choose principals who are “team” players. That was one of the criteria for choosing Manual teachers–Kherat’s list of qualifications did not include experience or educational qualifications–but “team” player was on the list.

8. Jon, P.S.–I meant there is “no” reason to drop it…. I did know that charter school teachers are allowed by law to form a union (but can’t be part of an already established union)–but the likelihood of a few charter school teachers in one school in Peoria is not very likely, so the charter school can be almost 100% assured that there will be no union.

9. “Illinois General Assembly, Freedom of Information Act. (5 ILCS 140/6) (from Ch. 116, par.206). Sec. 6. Authorization to charge fees…b) …first 50 pages are free; each copy thereafter is $.15.”

10. TR64–is that current or starting in January?

11. Under Illinois General Assembly, the law states the first 50 pages are free and the maximum per copy thereafter is $.15. There were amendments made to the FOIA IL records law “earlier this year” which take effect Jan 1. But the IL General Assembly specifically states first 50 free pages and maximum $.15 ea. thereafter. I would request it on disk or flash drive and save the paper for the schools and definitely would hold any IL public body to the 1st 50 free/$.15 thereafter. If an IL public body charges more than actual copying costs or more than the 50 free/$.15 thereafter, it is considered a denied request (and therefore subject to fines).

12. can it be retroactive 😉

13. Good point! Lisa Madigan has a very thorough “Guide to the IL FOIA” revised 9/2004 on http://www.illinoisattorneygeneral.gov that also includes a more detailed FOIA sample request letter.

14. Peoria Public Schools just made a robo-call to our house that the schools are being monitored by law enforcement because of the two escaped convicts. I think I’m going to go and pick up the kids early. Its just a little unsettling.

15. I just got one of those calls. You’d think they would have made the call earlier today since the convicts have been out since about 7am. Needles to say,I’ve been at home all day with the doors locked, something I never do.

16. I got the call early today (from the sheriff’s department)–and then read in the paper that one of them (just before he went to prison) had raped a woman on my street. Yes, I was a bit disturbed, especially, since last night while I was at the BOE meeting and out until 11 p.m. I had apparently and very accidentally left my back door ajar and somehow the wind blew it wide open (still can’t believe I did that). I did call 911 to investigate–but only a stray cat got in and I was surprised my cat didn’t leave. I’ve heard that the convicts had a car and are probably out of the area–I’m hoping that is the case. Wow–this is on a League of Women Voters’ blog–I guess we need a dumping ground to maintain the integrity of C.J.’s posts.

17. Just read on PJS website that Cook was captured at 2:40 on Spitznagle and Fuller had been spotted on Tracy–so they went to the other end of town, but the other still appears to be in Peoria.

18. There is also a public forum on charter schools from 5:30 p.m. to 6:30 p.m. at the Methodist Atrium Bldg (today’s PJStar B3) Thursday.

19. Jon, C.J., anybody: Please explain how Concept Schools is a not-for-profit organization. Does this company get any money–in what way is it considered not-for-profit–as opposted to Edison which I assume is a “for-profit” business?

20. Sharon, on not for profits, in general:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_for_profit

    On Edison Schools:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edison_Schools

    Many non-profits like Concept Schools receive funds in return for services rendered (helping to manage a school) as well as private donations (often from private foundations like the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation). The key difference is that any “profits” – revenues that exceeds costs for a given year (aka surpluses), are retained by the not-for-profit to be used for future services/goals of the organization, whereas a for profit company generally returns profits to investors – those who paid in money to start the company in the first place. That doesn’t make a for profit company “bad” – not if its services for the price paid is reasonable for the benefit gained.

    Hospitals, for example, are typically not for profits – they do charge for their services (and write off many bad debts, provide free/reduced services) as well as receive private donations that help fund their operating costs.

    Trade unions, like teacher’s unions, are also not-for-profits.

    Maybe charter schools won’t “destroy the public school” after all – whatever that means.

    You said “Over the long haul and when push comes to shove, businesses will make decisions based on money, not on sound educational practices.” Schools have to make decisions based on money, too – otherwise we’d have average class sizes of 8, year round instruction, everyone would make six figures so as to attract the best employees, etc.

    You might be interested in taking an introduction to business course. A 3 hour a week course, beginning this Spring semester at ICC, is only $261. (It’s that cheap because they pay their adjunct professors so little 🙂 Well, and they do get state funding.) Schools, cities and other government bodies are businesses to a certain degree. They take in revenues and pay out various expenses to provide a service(s). In doing so, they have to make tough decisions, such as closing schools while balancing the needs for newer facilities – in other words, they make “business decisions”.

21. Jon, How funny, of course, I’m not interested in taking a introduction to business course. At age 72 that just doesn’t have much appeal to me–never did; that’s why I was an English/Journalism major. I realize that schools have become big business (repleat with PR departments) and that is one of the reasons that we have failing schools–they aren’t even doing well financially. All decisions for the last 30 years have been based on the bottom line. I think you did answer my question so that I can say profit or not-for-profit, these companies are still businesses–and I wonder how many of their owners know much at all about subject-matter teaching. Just as hospitals whose services are extremely expensive are “not-for-profit.” Even churches (especially, the national organizations) are “not-for-profit” big business with large real estate holdings. (Labels can be deceiving). “Not-for-profit,” so the employees of Concept Schools don’t get paid! Just joking, of course, I know they get paid. I wonder if their salaries are equal to that of teachers or administrators. By the same token, I guess that teachers can say that they work for “not-for-profit” organizations because schools certainly are “not-for-profit.” Also, when there is a “profit” (and there will be a profit because the charter school will be hiring the cheapest teachers they can find without tenure and union contracts, etc.), who gets the benefit of the “profit,” the school itself (profits made on the backs of the teachers) or the company so that it can expand its operations to even more schools, etc. Yes, charter schools will destroy the public school–how–by cherrypicking–let’s save that argument until after the students have been selected and after the charter school sends the unwanted kids back to the public school. And if that doesn’t happen, I will admit I was wrong.

22. Thanks to Elaine Hopkins for her report on the League of Women Voters’ forum on the charter school proposal. Go to http://peoriastory.typepad.com/ to read Elaine’s account.

23. On another post, Sharon said:

    “I wish that some of you who criticize me for my comments about Manual cared enough about it to join me in trying to find a way to give the young people of the south side a school that would serve them as well as it once did.”

    Thanks for the intro to say how well the proposed charter school can fit that mission!!

24. I am not convinced that the new Manual program will not serve the majority of the students at Manual well. All transitions take time to bear fruit.

25. Frustrated: What are you using as the basis for your feeling? Are you in contact with people from Manual–parents, teachers, students? Restructuring was forced on Manual because of NCLB scores. Should NCLB scores then be the measuring stick to tell us whether or not the program is a success or a failure? How many years do you think the taxpayers of 150 should pay $200,000+ per year to decide if the program is doing the job? Do you believe that this Johns Hopkins program designed for students who read below grade level (5th or 6th grade) should be forced on all students? I personally know several enriched juniors and seniors who felt cheated by being “slipped” into this program without an opportunity to “escape.” Would you be happy if this had happened to your child? Would you be happy if you child were given one semester to cover the material that other students cover in a year? Should the Woodruff students relocated to Manual be given information to make an “informed” decision about going to this “choice” school? Do you feel that six new teachers (3 from the science department) leaving this semester is any indication of the success of the program and/or Manual leadership?

26. FYI: no one can transfer in or out of Manual during the semester because their new program is condensed from 1 year to 1 semester, students coming in or out would lose credits from the school they are coming from or going to. This is a FACT. Having taught on the south side of Peoria for my whole career, I know how difficult it is to teach children constantly moving. I have had children that have been in 3 schools by the end of the first semester of one school year. That alone is cause for low test scores. The longer you can keep a student in a classroom/school without moving around the more information that student will retain. Therefore, the Johns-Hopkins program will be considered successful in that they will be able to keep students in/out for a longer period of time. Hey, if it works…..great.

27. Manual watcher–the reality is that often the students who want to transfer do not have passing grades any way (per your own logic), so they can transfer without losing much. At the end of the year, transfers are possible. Hopefully, Woodruff parents can avoid this trap before their displaced students make the choice (which they are to be offered) to attend Manual. I must admit you have a unique take as to how this program can become a success. However, the percentage of students who transfer in and out is not high enough to account for all the low test scores. At the high school level, absenteeism, not transfers in and out, probably plays a bigger role in low test scores. Also, Manual has already experienced a problem with students transferring into Manual from out of town. These students, who move into the Manual attendance area, are placed at Manual. Transferring their credits into Manual’s block schedule is a problem.

28. I have bore witness, firsthand, of students who tried to transfer into Manual, just two weeks ago….and were told to “stay where they are” until the semester is over… They were send BACK. Sharon, I was trying to put a positive SPIN on the joke called Manual High School, more like Manual Low School……..:}

29. I saw that Manual lost a close basketball game to Central last night. There we go again with D150 and the current Manual administration in particular – ruining a once proud basketball program! When will it ever end? 🙂

    Manual watcher – I think you are correct about the problems mobility causes. I think that has a HUGE impact on students’ learning. It’s interesting to see just how much test scores dropped at Thomas Jefferson (don’t have the figures readily available, but I’ve commented on it before with the details) during the year they “simply” moved from one building to another. Imagine the impact when not only your building changes, but your teacher and curriculum. I also believe that most of that mobility is within D150 schools – it’s not like most of these kids are moving entirely out of town/district.

30. Manual Watcher–I think I get your spin now–thanks for clarifying. Jon, who said anything about ruining a basketball program? Besides, you will never catch me saying anything but wonderful things about Derrick Booth–both as a former student and as an adult. Derrick is a great example of what Manual used to be, and I’m sure he’s doing his best to help Manual students now. Jon, I’m confused; now you seem to be agreeing with me that the change at Manual had a negative impact on students. Also, remember that, in the case of TJ, all the students were relocated–hence a major impact. Question: When they all move back to their own building, can we expect test scores to improve? But won’t the displacement of 1,000 Woodruff students create a negative impact on test scores and everything else–maybe more so because these students will be totally removed from familiar surroundings and their teachers and friends, etc.

31. Excellent questions Sharon!

32. Apparently the charter school won’t be getting the million-dollar start up money from District 150. I thought tonight’s BOE meeting was supposed to be about the charter school, but the agenda is: PERSONNEL 2(C) 1 Appointment, discipline, performance, dismissal, employees (that is certainly an interesting agenda).
    Per PJS website: Now Caterpillar has offered $500,000 for the initial cost of charter school and is asking other businesses to contribute $250,000 to accumullate the million dollars needed–I wonder what other businesses will cough up that amount. Caterpillar seems good at spending 150’s money–certainly Bruce Blackie’s connection to Caterpillar (father was CEO) played a major role (if not the only role) in bringing Edison to Peoria. Cat may put up $500,000 now, but District 150 will lose the per pupil money every year from now on. Please, please any one of you who thinks that this charter school will take on any of the lowest performing students (as required by charter school guidelines), think again. Caterpillar is not putting its money into a losing proposition–they will leave the low performing students to 150 as the charter school finds a way to cherrypick the better students. Unfortunately, many will find this quite acceptable, and, if 150 doesn’t hustle to get its act together, maybe they deserve what they’ll get–I’m hoping that they catch on soon before the public school in Peoria is completely destroyed.

33. In PJStar article from last week, Roberta Parks said the funding needed to be voted on at the BOE January 11th meeting.

34. Agreed–but I thought the board would discuss their decision ahead of time at this December 21 meeting–that’s what they usually do. They won’t argue about a decision in public–usually they make up their minds earlier and just conduct the vote in public with a minimum of discussion. I don’t think Cat would have made this move (and Rob Parks would have made all the public pleas this week) if 150 had been willing to cough up the million dollar start-up cost.

35. I think Caterpillar has been a phenomenal supporter of innovative programming in District 150. Didn’t they support the IB program at Richwoods? Hasn’t that been a program that many rave about? Haven’t they supported the Destination Technology program? What is wrong with them supporting the charter school?

    On another note, I am so sick of people saying that the charter school is going to “cherry pick” students!!! Charter schools offer choice and opportunity. It is totally up to a parent as to whether they want to make that choice for their child. Plain and simple. If we are not going to support choice programs, then let’s close Washington and Manual, the Prepatory School of the Arts and Roosevelt Magnet and the IB Program and any other program I left out.

36. Carrie–Personally, I am not a big fan of any of the “choice” programs. All of them were established to appease those upset with 150. I recently realized that Washington was established in the 1960s–anything established in the 1960s was a reaction to integration–make no mistake about that. I am not that opposed to Washington now–but it’s origin certainly calls its original purpose into question with me. The Fine Arts school pulled out the best musicians at the expense of the music programs at the other three (at least, two) high schools. Roosevelt stopped being a magnet long ago–but was established to try to stop the exodus out of the south end–big success, right? The IB program was certainly established to keep people in 150. Manual is definitely not a “choice” school because nobody is choosing it. Only 9 students from outside the Manual era opted into Manual’s 9th grade this year. Nineteen asked to leave–only 4 were allowed to transfer. Twenty-six Manual students from last year did not return to Manual this year and did not transfer to another 150 school. Destination Technology–I don’t believe that that pulled kids out of their home schools, did it? My object to the choice idea (and to the charter school) is that none of them solved 150’s problems. All the programs ignored the schools that most need reform (and everything got worse in those schools)–and, of course, my idea of reform is requiring students to meet acceptable standards of behavior. It is my firm belief that such reform would bring academic improvement as a result.

37. If Manual is a choice school, then WHY are 1/2 of Woodruff’s students being told they have to go there?

38. It is my understanding that they have a two-week window out–if their parents fill out the proper forms, etc. I hope Woodruff parents are well aware of this option. But 1/2 aren’t scheduled for Manual–only 182 (I think)–district knows students don’t want to go there. 500-600 are headed for PHS. The big question is why aren’t all the Manual-area students given the opportunity to opt out if Manual isn’t their “choice.”

39. In PJStar article from last week, Roberta Parks said the funding needed to be voted on at the BOE January 11th meeting.

40. If Manual is a choice school, then WHY are 1/2 of Woodruff’s students being told they have to go there?

41. louboutin, All too true–in fact, why are Manual area students told they have to go there? If it is a choice school, all should be there by choice.

42. Sharon, louboutin is spam.

43. I heard a lot of kids are magically skipping grades at Lincoln Middle School..what’s up with that?? Didn’t Lathan bring the Lincoln principal?

44. That rumor about Lincoln 7th graders going to high school seems to be making the rounds. Many of us remember when the same thing happened under Royster at Blaine Sumner–those students who couldn’t read at grade level presented quite a problem at Manual. Also, then there were rumors of faking the passing grades for the Constitution test required to pass 8th grade.

45. So the board will vote Monday night on the recommendation to terminate a certified administrator’s contract for reasons other than reduction-in-force. Given the McArdle debaucle, I wonder how confident the board will be in casting their vote(s).

46. District Watch will not meet this Sunday–have a Happy Easter!

47. After reading back through chronicle comments just now–sharon,you said lathan scolded
    kherat? If lathan is aware that students are being socially promoted at lincoln, many of whom will go on to mhs, will kherat then be responsible for those reading scores as well? (Sorry about the capitalization, I’m really tired tonight)

48. What happened to the thread discussing the Michelle Ungurait case? Was it taken down?

49. Yes, I would think it strange if the Lincoln kids are being socially promoted by a superintendent who publicly reprimanded Kherat for inflated grades. There’s irony in that.

50. Social promotion, huh? I don’t suppose anyone who created this rumor or accepting it as gospel truth would bother calling a school board member and supplying one single name of one single student who skipped over 8th grade. Waiting …

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