The Nobel Peace Prize was awarded to Barack Obama “for his extraordinary efforts to strengthen international diplomacy and cooperation between peoples.”
“Only very rarely has a person to the same extent as Obama captured the world’s attention and given its people hope for a better future,” the committee said in its citation. “His diplomacy is founded in the concept that those who are to lead the world must do so on the basis of values and attitudes that are shared by the majority of the world’s population.”
At best, this seems premature to me. He’s only been in office nine months, and he has no diplomatic accomplishments (as even the New York Times acknowledges), only rhetoric. Has the Nobel Peace Prize become nothing more than a global popularity contest?
“God allows for “just” wars.”
Really? And what purpose do wars serve for God? Was it godly for America to go to war against England? Jesus taught that the colonists should have “rendered unto Caesar what was Caesar’s” and just paid their taxes. Not take up the sword… “for he who lives by the sword dies by the sword”. And no matter how evil taxation without representation is… “do not return evil for evil”. “Love your enemies, pray for your persecutors”.
Some Christian… every read The Bible or go to Sunday School and hear what your Lord and Savior taught???? Of course that is what GREAT about being a Christian… you don’t have to do anything or believe anything…just call yourself one.
“Terrorists are not “rational” people”
Ooooh good… let’s call them sub human beasts… huns, krauts, japs, ragheads, jews, gooks… dehumanize the enemy… that’s the first step.
What makes you think they are irrational? Because they struck a blow on the “most power nation in the history of the world” and have gotten away with it for nearly 10 years??? They have kept that nation in fear for over 20 years with limited strategic strikes, at very little expense.
“Although peace negotiations should always be considered first over going to war, history has shown it’s not 100% effective. I also believe that their needs to be consequences for wrongdoing (e.g., war, Capital punishment, etc.,) to hinder future wrongdoing (e.g., more 9/11s).”
And war is effective… what? 0%???? We have been at war with someone (as a nation) since we first took up arms against the English in 1776. When we couldn’t find someone over seas to fight we fight amongst ourselves…
Consequences for wrong doing… you want to kill people for “wrong doing”…
Which people do you want (someone else) to kill (for you)? The 100,000s civilians in Iraq who had nothing to do with 9/11??? The diplomats in the Chinese Embassy in Croatia? The thousands of American soldiers who are being dragged from their real jobs to fight in a foreign country as National Guard members… not out of patriotic duty but out of the need for a little extra income?
Do you remember what they called WWI? “The War to End All Wars”. WWII? 70 million, mostly civilians died after we fought to end war.
No, my friend, God hates war. War is not godly EVER. Corporations like war… corporations like Halliburton, Blackwater, GE, McDonald Douglas, Dupont… they LOVE WAR. Oh yeah.. the news media loves war, too. (and The Fox Network, too)
Dave, where did I say that there is no place for war and that all wars have been wrong or that all conflicts can be resolved through mediation? Do you really believe that one song can cause children to”worship” a president? And I don’t believe the song asked children to worship him–but I know I can’t win that argument with you, so don’t bother. If that were the case (and it would be great if it were true), then every child who ever sang “Jesus Loves Me” would be Christians. I wish I could believe that you would understand this. There are children in my life who have the same skin color as Obama has–and I hope you are sensitive enough to others to understand what I am about to say. No, I don’t believe that only people of the same skin color can have influence over children–as a white teacher that would be a stupid thing for me to say. However, Obama is special to many children (and their parents) because they have never seen a United States President that looks like them. That, in and of itself, is no reason to elect a president–I voted for him and that was certainly not my only reason. But as long as he ran and won the election there is no reason why we can’t allow the people to feel good about the fact that this country has come far enough along to elect a black man for president. That alone gave me hope that I have never had before that there may someday be an end to racial conflict in this country (a conflict that is far more in need of a resolution than any conflict we have with a foreign nation). However, I am beginning to see that many are just not ready to end racial conflicts–and that is a consequence of the sin of slavery with which this country will just have to live. Also, I was raised with the same beliefs about Israel and that Israel has now been given back the promised land. I still don’t know where I stand with all of that, but I think there is a real possibility that God didn’t do that–that the United States did and I am not as convinced as you are that the U.S. was God’s agent in that war. (Many wars have been won in history that were not God’s doing–he allowed them but may not have approved). God’s role with Israel may not have played out yet. I just needed to say that but you don’t need to argue that point with me. I know all your arguments–preached them myself when I was younger. Also, my Sunday School class just finished studying the book of Revelation–not my first time by any means. That war (as many wars in the Old Testament) will be God’s war–God’s people will not be fighting in that war. Remember God said “Vengeance is mine.” He does not permit us at any time to seek vengeance–justice, yes, but not vengeance and we can argue all day about which is which.
SHARON: You were a teacher… did you just pass along ideas to your students without questioning and testing them first?????
“Also, I was raised with the same beliefs about Israel and that Israel has now been given back the promised land.”
You realize , of course, that the Jews living in Israel today are not The Nation of Israel spoke of in The Bible. And that the original Nation of Israel was a bunch of Arabs descendants of Abram from Iraq that immigrated to Palestine.
Using the phrase “promised land” betrays a biased view of history… perhaps you should other Arab histories and not just the Jewish ones.
Also, Sharon, and you really should know this if you just “studied” Revelation: It was written shortly after the fall of Jerusalem during the First Jewish Revolt in 66-70 CE. It is a call to forbearance and faith to the survivors of that massacre. It was written to and about the people of the first century… but then again, you didn’t really “study” it, did you? You received an apocalyptic indoctrination to it. Revelation is a story of the past, not the future.
kcdad: You missed the part about “when I was younger.” I certainly agree with your views about the original Israel vs the modern day Israel, etc. I agree that the common view of “promised land” is probably way off. You and I have some very differing views about the Bible, God, Jesus, etc.,–and I am willing to let those disagreements go–I know neither of us will be changing our beliefs because of our respective arguments. That said, I share many of your insights–had them before we started writing on this blog and am glad to find someone who goes out on some of the limbs on which I have taken a few steps myself. I still believe (and will continue to do so despite any effects of the Stockholm Syndrome 🙂 ) that Revelation is about both the past (I do understand the Jewish Revolt 66-70 and its relationship to Revelation) and the future. I may not hold all of the “traditional” apocalyptic views–at least, I am willing to say that I can’t say with assurance what it all means–but I do believe it means something important. And what I believe about the Revelation is really not important–if there is truth in it and if it is about the future (which I do believe), then the future will happen without either of us agreeing right now. We did study Revelation and did consider all of the issues which you just brought up–and I was allowed to go out on a few of these limbs.
“You realize , of course, that the Jews living in Israel today are not The Nation of Israel spoke of in The Bible. And that the original Nation of Israel was a bunch of Arabs descendants of Abram from Iraq that immigrated to Palestine.”
I was going to stop debating, as I’m now convinced it’s futile. However, I have to make one last rebuttal to this statement. I have been studying Genesis in our church’s small group that meets at our house every week. God made a covenant with Abraham that he would be given a son, and that his descendents would inherit the land of Israel (Genesis 15:18). Sarah, obviously not having enough faith in God’s promise, had Abraham impregnate her Egyptian maidservant, Hagar, who bore Ishmael. Ishmael was also to have numerous descendents (Genesis 16:10,) but there was no mention of Ishmael’s descendents inheriting the land of Israel. Genesis 17:21 states that God’s covenant is established with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear.
So the descendents of Isaac are the Jews, and the descendents of Ishmael are the Arabs (being that Hagar was Egyptian.) Therefore, the Jews living in Israel today are INDEED the Nation of Israel the Bible spoke about. If Abraham and Sarah had trusted God’s original plan (for Sarah to bear a son,) we would not have the conflict we do today in the middle east.
And kcdad hijacks another post. He wins.
Sorry Sharon…. I DID miss that
“God made a covenant with Abraham’
One more time… The Jews claim ‘God covenant is established with Isaac” and the Arabs claim the covenant is established through Abraham… and his FIRST BORN.. not through Sarah… Didn’t you also just write that the covenant was established through Abraham???? Oh yeah… you did.
“Therefore, the Jews living in Israel today are INDEED the Nation of Israel”
No… the Nation of Israel separated from the Jews (or vice versa) and was destroyed. The Jews (JUDAH) were a separate kingdom from the Nation of Israel.
BILLY: See, you think it was hijacked, when all I did was correct misinformation… we were talking about peace, a godly concept, and someone decided war was a godly concept.
“One more time… The Jews claim ‘God covenant is established with Isaac” and the Arabs claim the covenant is established through Abraham”
No, the covenant with Abraham AND Isaac, not Ishmael, but you’re going to twist everything I say into a pretzel anyway…
So even with the written evidence that I’ve presented, you still believe the land belongs to the Arabs? Unbelievable.
“you’re going to twist everything”
i am not twisting anything… I am UNtwisting.
Your self centered view of reality is the PROBLEM that this thread is all about.
Instead of America being the center of everything, you are now saying Israel (which doesn’t exist, except in name only) is the center of history.
Can’t you understand that only some Jews and Christians believe that?
In the same way, some Americans think America is the center of the world.
Why is it when someone is shown to be wrong, they ALMOST ALWAYS respond with “You are twisting things”???????
“written evidence ” The Bible? A Jewish History book (History of the nation of Judah) written AFTER The Nation of Israel was destroyed????
Billy: Why does kcdad get the blame alone–Dave and I certainly have helped hijack the post? Every now and then I get lured into this subject that does interest me–and I always recognize that there are many, if not most, that aren’t interested. I always hope they pass over my posts–don’t click on them at all. However, I think this particular topic has extreme relevence to U.S. diplomacy (and the wars in which we are engaged) right now. These opposing views about Israel have everything to do with all our conflicts in the Middle East. These Biblical interpretations about Israel being the promised land given by God to Israel have everything to do with the situation in the Middle East and the U.S.’s role in these conflicts.
Dave: Have you gotten to Genesis 17 yet?
“Then God said, “Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. [d] I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation.”
I understand the covenant with Abraham being through Issac, etc. What do you make of God’s blessing of Ishmael–to be fruitful and the father of a great nation? When did that blessing end? Also, what do you make of the New Testament story of Jesus turning to the Gentiles as those who would from then on be responsible for spreading the Gospel? Who were the Gentiles of the New Testament–Caucasion Americans?
“I understand the covenant with Abraham being through Issac, etc. What do you make of God’s blessing of Ishmael–to be fruitful and the father of a great nation? When did that blessing end”
It hasn’t ended. Saudi Arabia alone is one of the richest nations in the world (as evident at the gas pump…)
“Also, what do you make of the New Testament story of Jesus turning to the Gentiles as those who would from then on be responsible for spreading the Gospel? Who were the Gentiles of the New Testament–Caucasion Americans?”
Yes, in a way. Gentiles are anyone who are “non-Jew.” Some of the gentiles He turned to were Romans. Even the Roman soldier at the foot of the cross admitted that Jesus was the Son of God (Mark 15:39.) So, the first Christian gentile was a white man (sorry to disappoint you.) I’m sure there were some Arabs who also spread the word of Christianity as well, as well as some Jews (Jesus disciples to name a few…) Christianity isn’t a white-only religion. I don’t understand why you always seem to interject race into every issue… I suppose it’s because I’m a republican, and all republican Christian white males are supposed to be bigoted…
Dave: Why do you associate God’s blessing with wealth? Much of the wealth of nations has been acquired in ways with which the God of the Bible would not be pleased–and should not be considered the result of His blessing. Are you sure that Roman soldiers in Jesus’ day would have been white Caucasions? I’m not walking on firm ground here–so I can stand corrected–how many white Caucasions would have been in the Middle East in Jesus’ time? Caucasions, I believe, are not all white. Are you assuming that all Roman soldiers were white–again I can stand corrected? I am astounded by your Republican Christian label–which of the two labels is the most important to you? Maybe it would be better to be a Christian Republican–but a Republican Christian does imply there is more than one kind of Christian. I am a Christrian who sometimes votes as a Republican and sometimes as a Democrat–I am not a Democratic or Republican Christian–the New Testament does not put any political labels in front of “believer.” I will probably always interject race into discussions because I believe that racial differences or conflicts are the root of many of the conflicts in modern society. I definitely want to resolve those conflicts preferably, at the foot of the cross, so to speak–but even extend kindness to those who aren’t Christian. That there is black-white hatred and Arab-American hatred is no big secret (and neither is practiced just by Republicans)–and I know its on both sides of each conflict. However, “my” side is white American, so I feel freer to look at and more obligated to consider the sins of my own “group” rather than the sins of others. For instance, there were many white churches in our country’s early (and late) history that advocated slavery, that didn’t fight for civil rights for all, and that even preached that blacks were not human etc., so I found it really hard to join in the “white” attacks on Jeremiah Wright. I’m all for taking care of our own sins before we began to attack others.
“So, the first Christian gentile was a white man (sorry to disappoint you.) I’m sure there were some Arabs who also spread the word of Christianity as well, as well as some Jews (Jesus disciples to name a few…) Christianity isn’t a white-only religion.”
“I don’t understand why you always seem to interject race into every issue… ” WTF?!?!?!
Are you completely uneducated? Or are you just an all out neo-nazi Aryan supremacist?
Arabs, Persians, Jews, Greeks, Turks and Romans are ALL “white men”!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Caucasian)
You really need to stop listening to Bill O’Reilly and his “white christian male power structure” nonsense.
“Are you completely uneducated? Or are you just an all out neo-nazi Aryan supremacist?”
I assume, since we’re stooping to name calling now, that I’ve touched a nerve. Let me ask you something. Do you just spot read, or do you read an entire paragraph and fully understand its context?
I said earlier that further debate with you is futile, as you tend to get vicious when you see the things you believe in being called into question. But I will answer your rudely phrased question nonetheless, for the benefit of CJs “open-minded” readers.
Sharon made specific reference to an American-looking Caucasian, and the closest example I could come to that was the Roman centurion, as obviously, America (as we know it) wasn’t around yet. If you look at a standard job application, they list many variations of races. I don’t see Roman as a separate category, however. I’ve yet to find one that specified only Caucasian, Negro or Mongoloid.
But I understand your need to discredit me as an uneducated bigot. Most liberals hurl those kind of accusations when they are backed up into a corner with the truth and don’t have a valid argument. Just eliminate the credibility of the debate opponent, and you win the debate. You have my admiration, as you are the master of doing that.
I don’t have to question your credibility, just point out your lack of it.
And there are those that say the teaching of ancient history is not important to American young people. I was not taught any of this (that I can recall at Woodruff in the 1950s). I believe many of us were undeducated in those areas. However, I did try to teach the understanding of other cultures to my own students–and the history of mankind. I found that in order to teach Beowulf, Juilius Caesar, etc, I had to “brush up” on my own knowledge of the history of England, the Roman Empire, etc. I believe that my own extensive study then and my own teaching gave me an appreciation and understanding of Biblical history that I had not been taught in my youth. I do believe that many young people who have been raised on the Bible (as I was) have little understanding of how the Biblical times fit in with the rest of history. Recently in Sunday School, we discussed the perceived appearance of Jesus. Like it or not (and I don’t like it any more), when I think of Jesus the immediate image ithat pops into my head is that of the very Caucasian man (with a tan 🙂 )–the picture of Jesus probably displayed in most white churches. I knew, kcdad, you would be able to enlighten me a bit–I was fairly certain that there were not many or any white folks in Jesus’ little corner of the world. Also, I am not sure of what groups of people would be considered Caucasian (white or otherwise). I now realize I need to brush up a bit more on when white folks did begin to leave Europe to go to the Middle East. I believe Caesar may have seen a few with blue-painted faces when he tried to invade England–oh, my, some of my history is getting a bit rusty. Help me–what race were the Celts?
Dave, I think I am correct in believing that much of Europe (not just America) wasn’t known to the Romans of Jesus’ time. So there probably weren’t any European-looking Roman soldiers in Jesus’ time. Julius Caesar tried to invade England. It wasn’t until Claudius’ invasion of 43 A.D., that England became part of the Roman Empire. I believe there is some speculation that Paul may have gotten as far as Spain.
“Dave, I think I am correct in believing that much of Europe (not just America) wasn’t known to the Romans of Jesus’ time. So there probably weren’t any European-looking Roman soldiers in Jesus’ time. Julius Caesar tried to invade England. It wasn’t until Claudius’ invasion of 43 A.D., that England became part of the Roman Empire. I believe there is some speculation that Paul may have gotten as far as Spain.”
It really is an irrelevant point. Race, to me, is irrelevant. Didn’t Dr. King want black people to be judged by the content of their character and not the color of their skin? I’ve always judged people by their character. Now it seems society is pushing us back to judging people by the color of their skin (e.g., hiring quotas, etc.) It’s obviously an important thing to you since you’ve mentioned it many times in your posts–and that’s fine. I just don’t appreciate being labeled a racist if I don’t find it as important as the rest of the world.
We are all the same in the eyes of God. I just merely made a speculation that the Roman centurion was white. We don’t know what color he was, and to be honest, it doesn’t matter to me if he was purple, as long as he accepted Christ as his savior and became saved.
The fact that this conversation skewed so far away from its original topic just proves how manipulative some of the members of this blog can be (not naming any names) in their lust to be right.
“Race, to me, is irrelevant.”
“Didn’t Dr. King want black people to be judged by the content of their character and not the color of their skin?”
“Now it seems society is pushing us back to judging people by the color of their skin ”
“I just merely made a speculation that the Roman centurion was white.”
Do you know that YOU are the one preoccupied with race and skin color and apparently are unaware of it?
btw King wanted EVERYONE judged by the content of their character, not just blacks… THAT was a VERY racist statement of yours. It reflects your white supremacist attitude.
“btw King wanted EVERYONE judged by the content of their character, not just blacks… THAT was a VERY racist statement of yours. It reflects your white supremacist attitude.”
No, he wanted his children (who were black) not to be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.
Come on, Dave, why did you say that I’d be disappointed to learn that the first converted Christian was a white Gentile? That sounded like white pride to me. You truly seem to miss the point of King’s statement. He was decrying the racist thinking that would cause white people not to look past the color of his children’s skin–to get to know them as humanbeings, etc. He was, I believe, decrying his fear that most black children are written off immediately because of the color of their skin. Please don’t even try to say that such thinking didn’t exist then and doesn’t still exist today–maybe not in your heart–but enough so that we still have to work on that kind of prejudice. Also, King was not implying that black children need to work on the content of their character; he was implying that most white people don’t care to look past skin color to see their character. He was just calling attention to what what a very, very obvious prejudice of his day–not that he wouldn’t want his children to build good character. Today, hopefully, is different–at least, enough so that we can hope for even more change for tomorrow. And back to the original topic–that is the hope that I see in Obama.
Your discussion on ‘race’ is moot. Race, as we have come to define it, is purely a social construct. Skin color, hair texture, etc are biological adaptations. We ALL come from a relatively small gene pool. Most of us…that is………..
“I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.”
Yes, the quote referred specifically to his children… so you really think that the speech was only about his 4 children??? No wonder we are still living with so much race hatred in this country.
This is EXACTLY why my readership of local blogs has dropped like a rock.
11Bravo,
Why…?