I’ve been seeing this comparison crop up frequently on websites and in my mailbox:
| Candidate | Congress | Military |
|---|---|---|
| John McCain | 26 Years | 22 Years |
| Barack Obama | 143 Days | 0 Years |
The “143 Days” is a bit misleading, as it’s evidently comparing days Congress is in session for Obama with calendar years of service for McCain. Obama has served in the Senate for three and a half calendar years.
Nevertheless, it’s an apt comparison. If there’s any value in experience, McCain certainly has the upper hand. And it’s kind of funny to me that military experience for the commander in chief isn’t more of a campaign issue when we’re in the middle of a war. It certainly was a campaign issue four years ago.
And Gen. Clark’s comment-speaking as a surrogate for Obama’s campaign-that McCain’s experience of being a POW for five and a half years doesn’t qualify him to be president? That experience is probably the ONLY thing that qualifies someone to handle being president!
With Cheney, Rumsfeld, etc, the Bush administration is probably one of the most experienced administrations we have ever had and look how bad they have screwed up the country. Maybe we need change and new ideas over experience. The way I see it, McCain has been part of the problem for his 26 years. Time for some new ideas.
Ben,
Can you list – facts only – how Pres. Bush and his administration “screwed up the country”?
Thanks in advance,
Just off the top of my head I can name a few things:
First Amendment:
Signed McCain/Feinfold
Domestic Terrorism Act
Faith-based Initatives
Fourth Amendment:
Warrantless wiretapping
Warrantless arrests
Fifth Amendmend:
Warrantless arrests
Enemy Combatants/suspected terrorists held withou charges, etc.
Sixth & Seventh Amendments:
Enemy Combatants/suspected terrorists without trial
Eigth Amendmentments:
Torture of Enemy Combatants/suspected terrorists
Ninth & Tenth Amendments:
Suspension of Posse Comitatus
First & Third Articles:
“Acting” Commander-in-Cheif
Please note most of these happened either with the Patriot Act and/or the creation of the Department of Homeland Security. Congress is guilty for nearly all of the above. Also, most would not be in effect if Congress would have declared war. Enemy Combatants would automatically be reclassified as P.O.W.s and would fall outside of the Constitution. However no suspected “Domestic Terrorist” can ever fall outside of the Constitution, so some situations would still exist.
I’d rather someone list Bush’s qualifcations to be President/Commander in Chief.
Qualifications to be President/Commander in Chief.
35 years of age, Native born, won the Electoral College vote.
Correction Martin
Commander-in-Chief:
Congressional declaration of war must happen prior to the President assuming this role.
The 2nd article of US Constituiion states that the President is the commander in chief without a qualification of time or circumstance. It would be more correct to state the times that the president is not the C in C. The only one that comes to mind is when the 25th amendment is in play. Any office holder is the occupant of an office from the time of appointment / election until the position is filled by a new office holder. Just because you are not in the chair or office of a position does not mean you are not the office holder. You are still a city council person on the weekends and when you are at the state fair or in a restaurant.
You are the mayor no matter where you go. You migt not have any power when you cross the river to attend an event but you are still the mayor , trustee, dog catcher etc.
There is legitimate debate in regards to the Patriot Act, but detainees at Guantanamo Bay do not, nor should they, have Constitutional rights. And btw, trials have begun (finally).
But let’s not confuse the issue – “screwing up the country” suggests something happening in our own country, not Gitmo. My point about “screwing up the country” suggested criticism of the President’s policies in regards to economic and social issues. Here we also have legitimate debate.
So let’s have it.
U.S. NATIONAL DEBT CLOCK
The Outstanding Public Debt as of 05 Aug 2008 at 04:17:29 AM GMT is:
$ 9 , 5 6 2 , 3 8 5 , 1 3 8 , 6 1 1 . 5 3
I believe I can cover the 53 cents.
Maybe if we had all the “violations” mentioned by Brad say, 7-8 years ago we wouldn’t have had 9-11 or a war. Hate to say it, but I feel safer knowing there are warrantless wiretappings going on…
Me too, EP Blondie!
And if they want to listen in on my conversations, they better be ready to be BORED!
I have not lost a single night of sleep worrying that someone was trying to listen in to a phone call to my Mom, or Sis, or Brother, or Bff, or whatever.
The terrorists on the other hand…
I would venture to say that anyone who HAS worried has had plenty good reason to…
I encourage you to read this article thoughtfully:
Fascist America, in 10 easy steps
This is weird, but I find myself in total agreement with the last three posts. Not that I am a Bush fan, but what can you do? I realize the Constitution is a ‘sacred document’ and all, but INTERNATIONAL TERRORISM was not a contingent our Founding Fathers planned for…. Even the Constitution has to change and adapt to an ever changing world; a world that is NOT always changing for the better.
CJ,
Wolf is not making a scholarly/historical argument here. Compare/contrast does not cut the mustard. Our Founding Fathers founded a Republic, or at least that was their intention. If our Founding Fathers had their way, the ‘system’ as it stands under Bush, would pale in comparison. Frankly, the idea that America become a Democracy scared the FF to death!
Any U.S. citizen who is not familiar with elements of U.S. govt need only take a class at the local community college. The ignorance of the masses cannot always be blamed on the government! Again, I am not a Bush fan [don’t really like him at all], but the security of the state/citizens comes first…..
What would that look like today? Maybe like this:
First they came for the Muslims
And I did not speak out
because I was not a Muslim.
Then they came for the liberals
And I did not speak out
because I was not a liberal.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.
You all may feel safer by putting more and more power into the hands of the government, but I sure as heck don’t. A quick look at history will show that that’s a Faustian bargain.
New Voice — You have to read the whole article before commenting! 😛
CJ,
As the nation [and world] expands and grows – don’t you think “putting more and more power into the hands of the govt.” is inevitable?
“A good intention clothes itself
with sudden power.”
– Ralph Waldo Emerson
On the other hand……..
“The road to hell is paved with good
intentions corrupted by our fears.”
– Lloyd Strom
Picking and choosing moments in history to support an argument rarely works. Given the thousands of years of human existance, it is easy to find a moment in history [or pre-history] to support or refute any argument. Famous quotes are little better.
CJ,
I did read the entire article. I did not have enough time to type a lengthy reply.
Wolf does nothing but support her argument with bits and pieces of ‘appropriate’ scholarship. What is her theoretical approach? Historicism? Marx, Hegel, Comte, Popper………? You cannot develop an historical argument base on simple deductive reasoning. The i-net is full of this stuff.
Idiots.
The question is the difference between McCain and Obama and the discussion turns into attack/defend Bush.
It is time to stop campaigning for 2000 and start talking about 2008, folks.
Who do I want to lead this nation? Well, some of the best qualified people never ran.
Personally, I think Obama is naive. He has the best of intentions but the world is insanely more dangerous than it was back in 1993 when Clinton fumbled foreign policy (staring with Somalia) and castrated the intelligence agencies. Our friends may enjoy the charisma of an Obama presidency but it won’t make any difference to our enemies. An aggressive domestic policy is swell, but the children you are trying to educate today need to see where this is all leading to tomorrow (jobs growth, science advancement, etc).
Although the personalities are very different, I see many similarities to 2008 Obama and 1992 Clinton campaigns – just substitute ‘Hope’ for ‘Change’.
In the hubris of a post-Obama election I fear for our country.
John McCain has experience – a ton of it. This is because he is insanely old. I swear, I think if he loses the election, he will retire to play golf, wear velcro tennis shoes, asking his son-in-law the same damn questions about this computer thingy he has. (whoops, that’s my father-in-law).
Anyway, I think the enemies of the United States will be disheartened if McCain wins. He won’t try to schmooze people who already pray for our destruction. At home, I think we will not get the governmental hand holding Obama would try to provide.
However, he is old, and that worries me. That’s why I want to be “Wowed!” by his VP choice. NONE of his opponents in the primary would come with a Wow-factor. I feel that if I vote for McCain, I am also very likely voting for his successor.
Conclusion: I am moderately McCain.
Anon E. Mouse,
Idiots? Before you ‘wow’ us with any more 3rd grade level political science, re-read the initial post.
New Voice: If you mean that all countries/empires eventually fall and new ones rise up to take their place (more of a macro-view of history), then yes, I suppose it’s inevitable that we’ll put more and more power into the hands of government. I just don’t care to hasten our demise.
And I disagree with your premise that we should disregard the volume of history as nothing more than a book of prooftexts. It would be very foolish indeed not to try to avoid the same mistakes others have made.
But Anon is right, this thread has been hijacked. We’re waaay off-topic. 🙂 We should be talking about McCain and Obama.
Again, talk about veering off course. By calling us idiots, you are showing your disrespect for other people’s opinions. That just shows your lack of intelligence and character.
People who continue to beat a dead horse are idiots, IMHO.
To the “I feel safer crowd”, I think some of you missed an important part of my comment. With a declaration of war, the wiretapping and detainee issues would be moot. Also, so would the spending issue that was brought up. And there were terrorists during the Founders days and they dealt with them legally under the Constitution. My point is that there are Constitutional ways to to the tings that are being done, the politicians would just be more accountable to We the People.
Also, to the I feel safe crowd – I suspect most of you are Republicans, which is neither here nor there to me, but would you be as happy if President Clinton had the same powers that Bush now has, or if Obama is elected would you still feel as safe. Imagine how skewed these assumed powers will become over the nest 10 years or so.
And finally to Precinct Committeeman: Article II states: The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States;
Until 1973, when called into actual service meant to repell invasion, surpress insurection, or war.
Sorry for the hijack CJ
Actually, this thread hasn’t been hijacked. Obama wants voters to think electing John McCain would give us a third Bush term, but considering that electing Obama would give us a second Carter term 28 years removed, a third Bush term sounds pretty good 🙂
Bush has made his share of mistakes –
(1) He too often fails to defend himself when he is right and too often accepts his critics’ false premises and nonsense (“we are addicted to oil”).
(2) He’s been a total sissy when it comes to immigration issues, though I suspect there’s more to the issue than the administration will say publicly (read: Islam in Latin America).
(3) Bush hasn’t learned yet that throwing more money at education is not going to solve any problems. But members of both parties and not the president alone – especially entitlement-loving Dems – can share the blame for the national debt.
Having said that, Obama’s got huge problems despite the obamagasms from the lamestream media. Worse, he’s gotten extremely arrogant (more so than McCain) and selfish. He demonstrates he has no leadership qualities (dumps “friends” like Rev. Wright and Ludacris after controversy threatens his campaign) and after he states his position on a particular issue, he is forced to modify it (federal funds to religious organizations, Iraq War, oil drilling, etc.). Mark my words…President Obama will make you Bush haters actually miss him!
I expect McCain to run a lackluster campaign, but a careful VP pick will improve his chances of becoming the 44th POTUS.
EP Blondie: “Hate to say it, but I feel safer knowing there are warrantless wiretappings going on…”
Oh, so I take it that you’ve never been a member of a political party that the government is trying to suppress.
Brad,
I hope you took note of the very important punctuation mark in the form of a comma after the first clause ending with the United States. Then the joining conjunction word “and”.It make a world of difference in the interpretation.
Mr. Jordan: “Bush has made his share of mistakes…”
That is the biggest understatement I have read here. ROTFLMAO.
Then you go on to list what you think his mistakes are. Even funnier except that you fail to mention anything about the wasted lives lost in a needless war. Tell that to the families of the lost ones both American and Iraqi.
Turn off Fox News, I saw that episode and you quoted it almost word for word.
Obama will be nothing like Carter in any regards. (More Fox hype) McCain will certainly be exactly more of the same and I am afraid most people of both parties have had enough.
Brad,
I think you are misunderstanding the article you cite because of a lack of historical context. At the time the Constitution was written we didn’t have a standing military presence. So there was no military in the service of the United States to preside over.
Since the establishment of a full time military, the President is always the Commander in Chief.
“When called into the actual Service” doesn’t mean when at war. Service doesn’t necessarily have to be a military action, a military force in training is still in service to its country.
Otherwise your argument would imply that there is only civilian oversight of the military during times of war which just simply isn’t true.
Emtronics,
You’re response sounds like DailyKos word-for-word 🙂
An asshole with experience at being an “asshole,” is still just an asshole.
Experience means diddley with McCain. The only “experience” he has is being a supposed “maverick” that truly has run with the normal “movers and shakers” in Washington; along with a desire to continue doing what the worst president in American history has been doing.
David: To each their own. (What is the DailyKos?)
Emtronics,
“DailyKos” is this:
http://www.dailykos.com
It’s the Democrats’ Pagan Left to thge Republicans’ Religious Right.
It’s also where you might have seen the original, “…wasted lives lost in a needless war. Tell that to the families of the lost ones both American and Iraqi.”
BTW, I noticed the rhetoric has changed from “unwinnable” to “needless,” since the former is proving to be completely untrue.
I agree with David P Jordan… no prisoner of the United States government should have any rights until the government decides they have rights.
Oh wait! No I don’t. I agree with the Constitution of The United States. The government only has rights granted by the people.
“Entitlement-loving Democrats”
LMAO! What planet have you been living on?
He who sacrifices liberty for security deserves neither
Oh yeah, well it wouldn’t be exactly liberating if you took your children down for a stroll on the riverfront and got your heads blown off by a terrorist…
That’s the price of freedom. Either you cherish it or you don’t.
What about the Constitution?
What if you were walking down by the riverfront and a van pull up through you in the back and flew you to Egypt for an intense interrogation? All of this without due process or even the ability to have an attorney.
New Voice said it best when he made this comment above:
I can’t say it any better than that!
Diane — So we all agree that the Constitution has been violated. I say, until it’s changed, we should abide by it. It’s not up to you, New Voice, and the President to decide the Constitution is no longer in force. It’s in force until the people of the United States amend it.
CJ – please don’t put words in my mouth. I never said the constitution has been violated. I would have to study a. the constitution and b. US actions in order to have a definitive opinion in that regard. Re-read my comments please.
I’ll re-iterate only that it doesn’t bother me that US intelligence intercepts suspected terrorist communications. If that ever changes, I’ll let you know first.
Ok so I mostly agree with kcdad, although I don’t believe the argument that the constitution grants the same rights to enemy combatants/POWs as it does to citizens of the US.
I disagree with Diane, because its the ignorant view that we don’t live in a world where terrorists could come and blow off our heads that got us in to this problem in the first place. Complacency kills people, taking away or minimizing personal freedoms doesn’t solve the problem it just lulls people into another false sense of security.
We don’t live in a safe world folks, never have and never will. Sure we may be safer than someone in the middle east, but we are never, no matter how much power you give to the government, going to be completely safe. That doesn’t mean you need to live in fear it just means you need to have a little more situational awareness.
And curious, I think you need to put out whatever you are smoking and open the windows to get some fresh air.
It is always very difficult to develop good arguments/discussions on the internet; to many miscues and misinterpretations. CJ, you ARE a dickens!!!!! Changing and/or adapting the Constitution is NOT the same as violating it!!!!! Think of all of the amendments, good and bad, since it was written.
“It’s in force until the people of the United States amend it.”
I agree, but isn’t every politician from the President to the Mayor of Peoria supposed to represent the will of the PEOPLE?
Last to CJ, KCDAD and whoever: “He who sacrifices liberty for security deserves neither…”
What about he who sacrifices his LIFE for liberty? What does he [or she] deserve?
CURIOUS: Do you really think your question warrants an answer?
“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” — Benjamin Franklin
Murrel,
Thank you for the re-cap. CJ and KCDAD went this same route earlier. On top of what I already wrote dealing with this subject, let me just say that U.S. law enforcement, etc is shooting for far more than a “little temporary safety.” No pun intended.
Besides, if a member of Ben’s family was involved in a terrorist incident, he might have thought differently……………..? Also, please consider the historical context of Ben’s quote.
Diane says, “I’ll re-iterate only that it doesn’t bother me that US intelligence intercepts suspected terrorist communications.”
Diane, nobody is bothered by US intelligence intercepting suspected terrorist communications… as long as they have a warrant to do so. The objection is to warrantless wiretapping — the kind you alluded to in your original comment: “I have not lost a single night of sleep worrying that someone was trying to listen in to a phone call to my Mom, or Sis, or Brother, or Bff, or whatever.”
If the government doesn’t have a warrant for listening in on these private phone conversations between you and your mother, sister, etc., then you darn well should be worried about it. That’s an abuse of power, and decidedly unconstitutional.