At Tuesday’s City Council meeting, Terry Knapp spoke to the council and encouraged them all to read a new book by Diane Ravitch called “The Death and Life of the Great American School System: How Testing and Choice are Undermining Education.” He wanted them (especially the Mayor) to read it before next week’s education symposium with Education Secretary Arne Duncan and school reformer Paul Vallas.
The book is available from Amazon.com here, but you can get a pretty good synopsis of her thesis by watching this lecture (two parts, approx. 15 minutes total, from the Radical Film and Lecture Series at NYU, via YouTube):
“Diane Ravitch is a historian of education. She is Research Professor of Education at New York University. She is a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution in Washington, D.C.,” and “From 1991 to 1993, she was Assistant Secretary of Education and Counselor to Secretary of Education Lamar Alexander in the administration of President George H.W. Bush,” according to Politico.
While listening to her speech, I couldn’t help but think about Peoria’s charter school, which is heavily promoted by business interests, not the least of which being the Peoria Area Chamber of Commerce. I also thought about how the school board was not even invited to next week’s education symposium — a telling omission. And finally, I thought about this article I recently read from the New York Times: “A charter school created and overseen by Stanford University’s School of Education was denied an extension of its charter on Wednesday night after several members of the school board labeled it a failure. Last month the state placed the charter school, Stanford New School, on its list of persistently lowest-achieving schools.” Ravitch is quoted in that article as saying:
“Maybe this demonstrates that schools alone cannot solve the very deep problems kids bring to school,” said Diane Ravitch, the education scholar and historian. “You cannot assume that schools alone can raise achievement scores without addressing the issues of poverty, of homelessness and shattered families.”
It’s too bad Ms. Ravitch won’t be at next week’s symposium. It would be interesting to hear her spar with Duncan and Vallas.
Frustrated: you throw around the word jaded rather flipantly. What I wrote is FACT. Jr. High, Freshman girls having babies with multiple partners is FACT. Obama is NOT a good fit to be president of the United States so how could he “be on to something” involving the qualifications of TEACHERS. GET A CLUE!
in the trenches – perhaps the jaded part was your assertion that some of your students are “doomed”, which implies that there is nothing they can do to affect their futures. (Or that you question why a person would comment here. Or should “get a clue” presumably because she doesn’t agree with you…)
Yes, teaching can be a very difficult job. It can wear people down. I doubt you started teaching because you wanted to be involved in the lives of “doomed” children. You’ve got to believe that you can make a difference in these kid’s lives.
“Obama is NOT a good fit to be president of the United States so how could he “be on to something” involving the qualifications of TEACHERS. GET A CLUE!”
Talk about your non-sequitor…. ????
Stay on the topic, Trench. Obama is not getting these kids pregnant, in fact his kids aren’t underage and pregnant… but Palin’s is.
Schools are meaningless and irrelevant today for most of the inner city and lower income youth. Why shouldn’t they get what they can from them? YOU WOULD TOO. In fact, you probably squeezed every bit you could get out of your school.
The difference, of course, is you saw a purpose, an ultimate goal to your getting a diploma and being able to get a job or go on to college.
Did you know that unlike Bush, Clinton or Bush or Reagan or Carter, or Ford or Nixon or Johnson or Kennedy or Eisenhower or Roosevelt… Obama WAS a teacher?
(Of course he was a BLACK teacher and he taught LAW SCHOOL and … well… I understand)
Frustrated says: “What I hate see happen is families that are satisfied with schools like Whittier leave the District 150 school system when their children reach MS if they cannot gain entrance into Washington. There should be another option for those families.”
What I assume you are saying is that Peoria families consider our existing middle schools unacceptable and so therefore you propose creating an additional “acceptable” environment. Why wouldn’t the goal instead be to work to make our existing schools acceptable?
Frustrated, read the book before you use the “students that meeting state standards” as your qualifications for students who deserve a “choice.” In fact, NCLB itself states that the only children who can ask to be moved to another school are those that DO NOT meet the standards–the assumption being that it is the school’s fault. Of course, I don’t agree with that assumption, but I also don’t believe the test tells the whole story about the success of students, teachers, or schools. You are truly asking for trouble if you put all the low ability students in one school. In response to someone’s earlier post (lost track of whom), I am really not for tracking, at all–I saw how that failed, but I think primary and middle schools could do a better job of grouping kids together so that one classroom doesn’t have an extreme range of abilities. I think you and I will have to agree to disagree–our opinions aren’t going to change anything in 150 anyway. However, we will be better able to assess the “choice” situation in Peoria–after the charter school has a few years “under their belt.”
Sharon… teachers are the problem. Yes, there are probably (?) some good ones out there still, but most have sold out and given up.
Sold Out- to the administration’s demands of curriculum based , outcomes education. We will force those kids to learn this crap or we will kick them out. (or just pass them on through anyway)
Given up- that there is any real hope of making a difference. Just give me my raise, my benefits and tenure…
Charlie, of course, I don’t agree, but go to http://peoriarocks.blogspot.com/ and read about Hedy Elliot-Gardner’s latest educational effort–over and above her teaching job in 150 and her position as vice-president of the Peoria teachers’ union. We have to remember that you are a teacher, too–have you given up? So why should you assume that there aren’t other teachers who care as much as you do? Admittedly, the current NCLB climate doesn’t make it easy–that’s why I’m so hyped that someone (Ravitch) is calling its negatives into focus.
“Yes, there are probably (?) some good ones out there still, but most have sold out and given up.”
I know about Hedy. There’s one.
You were an English teacher, right? What was the literacy level of your graduating students? What is the literacy level of graduating students today? Has it gone up or down since you started teaching?
I presume you have seen the global comparisons of American educated students vs other country’s students? Has it always that way, or is it getting worse?
How about money? Are we spending more money (adjusted for inflation) per student or less? How about education level of the teachers… more or less MAs in high school today than in the past? Can you think any one statistic about education where there is any hope? (Higher rate of graduation would not be a particularly hopeful stat since a higher percentage of those graduates are functionally illiterate than ever before)
You can’t fix a dysfunctional system. The system must be razed and a new one raised. (You like that?) We MUST start over.
Charlie, you decry the testing craze, yet use only test results to indicate the state of public education. I think the better test would be to find out what our graduates are doing 5 to 10 years after graduation. Of course, I know that you don’t want to use “job” readiness as any kind of measure, but I think it’s a far better measure than are test scores. The literacy rate has gone down in public schools since I started teaching. I believe there’s a direct correlation between today’s test scores and the number of students who are now in private schools (compared to when I started teaching). The better prepared students who have parents with the money to opt out of public school have definitely done so. The public schools have lost many of its top students–who can deny that?
http://fora.tv/2007/09/24/Jonathan_Kozol_Letters_to_a_Young_Teacher#fullprogram
“couldn’t we just settle for something a little more moderate than than equality and justice?”
I don’t care a fig for test scores. I care about young adults entering the world without the ability to think.
We just have to agree to disagree, but I believe there have always been and still are teachers in 150 who teach students to think. There are other influences in our society that thwart and/or dictate the thinking of young people. Also, I have to say that teaching children what to think is undoubtedly a right that parents do not want taken from them–whether or not you or I agree with the thinking. Just because young people in 150 do not think the way either you or I would like them to think doesn’t mean they haven’t been taught to think. Personally, I believe peer pressure alone stifles independent thought–most young people don’t even start “to think” about serious issues until they are long out of our control. One of the things I like most about the teenager in my life is that she is a “thinker.” I’m not sure who gets the credit–I would say the combination of all the teachers, family members, etc., in her life.
Instructor: Heady Gardner
Hedy Gardner and many of the rest of us: Railing against District 150 but supporting District 150 students–wanting what is best for them.
I know this is somewhat off-topic….I have heard that district 150 admin is pink-slipping all of the teacher assistants by the end of the month. I have heard this from more than one person. I just can’t imagine such a sweeping blow to the schools and students. Does anyone have any info on this?
I think this is the issue about which Durflinger spoke at the last meeting–that they or replacements will be rehired. I think he said something about finding college grads to take the place of some; however, he didn’t say anything about paying them more if they have higher degrees, etc. I’m not sure if I’m right as to which “assistants” he was referring.
Yup. Not enough money to pay the teachers and their helpers, you know, the ones that actually TEACH KIDS.
Sharon…
What language are you using?
“I care about young adults entering the world without the ability to think.” I didn’t say teach them what to think… that isn’t thinking. That is programming. I clearly implied students can not think for themselves BECAUSE of what schools are doing to them. That you can point out a few students who can think for themselves says nothing about the schools. The exceptions PROVE the rule.
We are training students to accept the world the way it is, to use the language of the oppressors, to sacrifice their rights for a paycheck and to depend upon technology for their survival. In which class, is there a curriculum of critical thinking?
And of course there are teachers who care about teaching… for awhile, anyway. How many teachers do you see show up at Godfathers on Sundays? As many as show up for their union meetings when contracts are renegotiated?
I can’t even guess how many teachers have their children go to private schools or other schools outside of 150.
Charlie, any discussion about good and bad teachers is futile. We all know some of both. I refuse to accept your blanket statements about all teachers. There are many reasons why teachers don’t come to the Godfather meetings (their teaching responsibilities and their own families for one). However, many of them do keep in contact with people that do go to Godfathers. I don’t think I said that teachers teach students what to think; I thought I said that other influences in their lives probably do teach them what to think–or they simply emulate the thinking of family members, adult friends, etc. Teachers are just not the only influence in the lives of children. I know that when I was in high school I had my own very strong convictions and religious beliefs (and still have the same beliefs although I spent several adult years fighting them and questioning them). I remember arguing vehemently with a couple of teachers who tried to change my mind about my own faith. The other influences in my life (as with the influences in the lives of most young people) are much stronger than any one teacher.
Watcher said, “What I assume you are saying is that Peoria families consider our existing middle schools unacceptable and so therefore you propose creating an additional “acceptable” environment. Why wouldn’t the goal instead be to work to make our existing schools acceptable?”
Well, I am assuming that already is the District’s goal (improve poor performing schools) and it will be renewed with even more vigor when the new Supt. arrives. But what is the topic of this post? Ms. Ravitch, an expert, says it is hard to overcome the “deep rooted problems” that some children bring to school, so don’t blame the teachers. That is supported by some of the teacher comments posted here.
SO . . . if I am a parent at Whittier with a 4th grader that is a fairly good student but didn’t get into Washington, then I am feeling “frustrated” and trapped. I have lived in the BU area for years and love the school environment and education my child received at Whittier, but now what??? I now, at least, have a chance of gaining entrance into the Charter School, but that is only a chance. So, the family I am describing is making application at Peoria Academy, Peoria Christian, St. Vincent’s, wherever. Because the reality is their child needs an “acceptable” school NOW! And at the end of the day, it is the parents that decide what is acceptable, and many have clearly voted “NO” as to District 150. Why not offer MORE of what families are seeking?? Why as a Board, Administrator, or Teacher would you not want to see a different outcome than I described above?
What you are advocating is change which is long overdue, because it is so difficult to accomplish. What I am advocating can be achieved fairly rapidly, just like the development of the Charter School. The scenario I described above happens all the time. Some families move out, some go private, but in the end the District 150 and the community as a whole loses.
You know I am not condemning the teachers… they are stuck in system that keeps them from being good teachers… and forces them to be bad trainers.
I want to fix the system, make it for the students and not for the administrators, politicians and local businesses.
Our entire society is going to hell because our people don’t how to question what they hear on TV or the radio. The Tea Party movement started out that way and has been entirely co-opted by the Neo-cons and hardly anyone has noticed.
“Obama regime”?
“Health care takeover”?
“Support our troops”?
“Tax the rich”?
“Feminazi”?
“Free market”?
“Fair and Balanced”?
“Socialism”?
“Environmental wacko”?
“Palin more qualified than Obama”?
These are expressions thrown around as if they have universal meaning, and people get caught up in the frenzy of meaninglessness.
BEFORE we teach our children how to get a job, we MUST teach how to think for themselves.
People have been gradually doing what you suggest over the last 20 years–leaving District 150. In response, District 150 has been trying to make that group happy by offering first Washington (the original “get away from integration” school as can be deduced from the timing of its origin). Then eventually Edison was the next big “let’s make that group happy.” Now the charter school is the next hope to come along. Instead of making the hard decisions–the ones that would improve the existing schools, District 150 has taken the easy route–to offer choice to the “right” people. Another such decision was to make Richwoods accessible to some students who do not live in the Richwoods attendance area. So, Frustrated, you still haven’t told me exactly what has to be done in 150 to make you happy. How many choice schools do you think 150 can sustain–and where will those choice schools be located? Whittier is a perfect example–since you brought it up. Since 150 decided to close schools and put a whole new group of students into Whittier enmasse, Whittier has had some problems that it never had before. The principal is trying to do her best to resolve the problems, so I wish her the best because this is one of the last “close to inner city” schools to maintain a great reputation. 150 administrators and board won’t worry about it until it’s too late.
Yes, I know you are not condemning teachers, and you know that I may disagree with you, but still appreciate your thoughts (and agree with much). I know many people who do not “think” as I do politically–I’m not sure that I want to go as far as to say they aren’t thinking. They just start with a whole bunch of assumptions that I consider faulty but they consider to be fact. (And they think the same of me and rightly so). I’m not sure that “learning to think” can undo these thought processes that are more emotional than intellectual. They are thinking within a certain context and I don’t think teaching has all that much to do with it. Education, of course, does change our thinking–hopefully, for the best, but probably not always. Pester away!
Sharon – I don’t know what would do it for me in terms of additional school offerings. I am definitely still a fan of a college prep academy. But maybe all they need is a different system of rationing the education that is currently offered, instead of all the game playing.
I just know it would be a great improvement to the community and strengthen real estate prices if a family could move into an established older neighborhood like the area around BU or the Knolls and be able to have a “choice” of where their kids attend school. That choice could come in the form of a currently established primary or middle school or a actual “choice” school.
“I’m not sure that “learning to think” can undo these thought processes that are more emotional than intellectual.”
THAT is an excellent point. It is sort of like bio-feedback for your brain… What am I presuming about what I perceive to be real?
And where is the “150 to spend 14 million on Central instead of Lincoln” thread, C.J.???
Sharon, thanks for all of your postings on this site telling others to read the book. Because of your postings I’m excited to read the book and come to my own conclusion.
Please continue to stick up for the students at Manual who deserve MUCH better than what they are getting. There are some of the BEST teachers there, both tenured and non-tenured, who will not be returning because of the lack of discipline and support from administration, NOT because they were let go due to budget cuts. Unemployment is worth not losing your hair or having a nervous breakdown daily.
The bottom line is that there is an entire generation of Peorians that are not receiving the best education possible to them. This is so unfair for society!
Read the chapter on the San Diego schools (before Lathan so there is absolutely no reflection on her). But much of what happened there, at least, before 2007 reminds me so much of the Johns Hopkins program. I noticed that from the BOE minutes that several teachers (probably non-tenured who would have been pinkslipped any way) were given the “heave ho” because they were supposedly not a good fit for Manual. Most of the rest of the teachers were pinkslipped–I hope some of them have found jobs. I feel badly for the young teachers whose first teaching experience was so negative. I feel badly for all the Manual students who have been victims of so much turmoil–they deserve stability and continuity; that can’t be provided when the faculty changes every year–as it has done for the last two years.
So her shpiel is that private schools only are successful because they only have successful kids enter them, and public schools are failing because there are needs and issues not being addressed by testing standards.
Her solution is … what ? I don’t get it? Pump more money into the public schools and hope for the best? Don’t hold teachers accountable for progress in their classes? WHY?
Does anyone know: are economically disadvantaged students who attend private school on a scholarship less successful academically than students who are economically advantaged? Maybe that’s addressed in the book–I’ll read it soon.
I’m against giving more money until and unless the district does a thorough and transparent analysis of how money is spent. It doesn’t (shouldn’t) take a 6 Sigma Black Belt to know that it’s wasteful to spend $.28 postage to tell a parent they owe $2.80 in milk money. Fees, announcements, newsletters, library fines, etc. should be posted electronically. Skyward requires a password, so save the excuses about privacy and lack of access to computers and get with the year 2010.
Charlie, you haven’t read the book yet, have you? I haven’t finished it yet either. I think she does offer solutions. Mostly, she decries the fact that all of the suggested solutions of a Nation at Risk were ignored. Her main point is that passing reading and math tests is the only concern of NCLB–it doesn’t care at all what students are learning; it has nothing to say about curriculum (course content, etc.) TR64–I’m not sure, but I don’t think she delves into the success or failure of private schools–she does look into the success and failure of public charter schools. I’m not sure any of us can discover much about private schools–I don’t believe they are tested through NCLB and no one can FOIA data from private schools.
It’s time for the usual invitation–6 p.m. at Godfather’s on Sunday, April 25, for the District Watch meeting. Everyone is welcome–that’s why we chose a public place for our meetings.
Sharon, I don’t intend to read it… I got the “taste” of Ravitch and it tastes like the teacher’s union. Of course NLCB or Race to the Top CAN’T work. They are band aids trying to fix a cancer ridden, gangrene, broken leg.
You can not a use a business model to fix education.
Charlie, fortunately, more than one person belongs to the teachers’ union. 🙂 At least, you agree with her main premise that a business model can’t be used to fix education. Read Elaine Hopkins’ account of Thursday’s SouthWest Kiwanis meeting at Childers’. Dr. Lathan was the scheduled speaker but Durflinger took her place.
“Vocational education “is the way out of poverty.””
So is crime, and so is working three jobs at minimum wage. (you know, The American Way)
If poverty was the problem we could give everyone $50,000. That isn’t the problem. It is lack of education.
Just to remind everyone: “The purpose of education is to make men of carpenters not carpenters out of men.”
Sharon, what do you mean by “business model”? Here is how it is described in wikipedia:
“A business model describes the rationale of how an organization creates, delivers, and captures value[1] – economic, social, or other forms of value.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_model
For starters, Jon, how would you go about measuring which of us (you or me) is the more knowledgeable? Can you identify one person who was responsible for imparting knowledge to you? So if a student in the 9th grade does well or poorly on a test–who gets the credit or the blame–the current teacher or every person who has ever had an influence on that student’s life? On the other hand, if you and I were salespeople for the same company, could an accurate judgment be made as to which of us is the most productive? Educationists using the business model have taken on the jargon of business–benchmarks, etc., assuming that productivity in education can be judged as quantitatively as it can in business. Also, business companies such as Edison and Johns Hopkins are in the education business to make money–that is their main goal, not the education of children.
“Johns Hopkins a business……..not the education of children…..really Sharon? Isn’t Johns Hopkins a highly regarded research institution with a somewhat sordid past? Easier to spread manure than to produce crops, eh?
Sharon, what does any of that have to do with a definition (well, at least as provided by wikipedia) of business model?
Your last sentence seems to argue that it is about making money. Since the charter school, for example, is a not-for-profit, does that then make it OK?
Let me make this easier. You’re here on the blog stating Ravitch’s main premise is that “a business model can’t be used to fix education.” You’re reading the book. What does Ravitch think a “business model” is, anyway? Isn’t that a fair, straightforward question?
Please note: I moved comments about Mary Davis to this post.
Really and Jon, I did respond to your last posts–but they disappeared in the wake of the Davis-related posts. I didn’t say much worth repeating anyway.
I think I see now where you were going, Sharon. You seem to be lamenting the difficulty surrounding accountability. (“credit or blame”, measuring who is “knowledgeable”, benchmarks, etc.)
When I was a student I felt the same way to some degree. How did a teacher measure whether my friend or I was “more knowledgeable”. Why did one get the A and the other a C? Should the student who got an F be “blamed” alone, or should “every person who has ever had an influence on that student’s life?” Why have tests or grades anyway? If a teacher or administrator or school can’t be measured as to how they are performing, then why should a student? Even if you are “measured”, when you’re found to be lacking – failing even, but are still passed on to the next year, what’s the point then?
I guess you can make this correlation between a school and a business. Both go away if no one wants what they are offering. (That is, unless a few remain who are forced to take it.) Did you notice how that wikipedia definition talked about creating, delivering or capturing VALUE. In a school system WHO ultimately determines what is or has VALUE?
I do think the A versus the B in a particular class can be justified because the teacher is testing a narrow more specific bit of knowledge (what the teacher actually taught). Also, the students will probably try harder on teacher-made tests because they determine pass or fail. There is no real reason for students to put forth effort on NCLB tests because there no consequenceds for students. You lost me in the part about “if a teacher, etc., can’t be measured why should a student. Teachers are evaluated on current performance and have grades from college to show whether or they mastered the material they are teaching. However, I still don’t understand how a teacher who does everything in his/her power to present and teach material can be judged when the material isn’t received in the same way by all students. If five students in a teacher’s class do very well and five do very poorly–how can the teacher be deemed an ineffective teacher? The fact remains that education is not a business. The financial affairs of a district should be run like a business. The educational aspect of a school cannot not be compared to a business.
This sentence in a new PJS story for tomorrow expresses why NCLB tests are not a true evaluation of a school’s success or failure:
The results that they tout, in terms of rising test scores and other gains, in fact have not really been achieved,” Hursh told YNN Rochester, a local cable news channel. “They’re really based on test scores that are not reliable, that are not valid. The test scores have gone up in all the school districts in New York state because basically, the tests have been made easier.
Doesn’t everyone find it amazing that each state gets to choose its own test and that Illinois’ test is one of the hardest?
“Teachers are evaluated on current performance…” Can you clarify?
“run like a business” – again, what do you mean by that? See that definition of “business model” and tell me how the educational aspect of a school can’t be run to “create, deliver, and capture value – economic, social, or other forms of value.”
According to FOIA’d information from Quest Charter School, 59 students who won the lottery never showed up at the charter school. Two others entered Quest but have since left Quest.
So far 55 students have been chosen to replace the 59 no-shows.
As I recall, the stand-by list consisted of 30 from each grade for a total of 90. The Charter School data
states, “We have exhausted our initial waiting list from the lottery and will be holding a public meeting
to select the remaining names that applied for Quest Charter School but were not chosen.”
Therefore, another 35 students must have declined the “second” offer to go to the Quest school as replacements for the no-shows.
District 150 gave me a list of students that were originally chosen by lottery. I was given the number from each school and the breakdown of how many students from each grade. I compiled the numbers on a spread sheet. I let the computer add the total number—the computer came to a total of 202. Terry Knapp added the numbers and came to a total of 202. The District 150 FOIA officer added the numbers and got a total of 216. Now how much confidence should I have in the FOIA’d information? I hope they get the numbers right when they are figuring up how much per pupil money should go to Quest from District 150.
A top D150 Administrator has “resigned”. This particular Admin was the source of significant controversy earlier this year – although it might be hard to narrow it down from that hahaha.
OK, you lost me. What current top D150 administrator had an administrative position earlier this year?
There is only one person above “Department Head” who was at D150 prior to current leadership. Are you talking about that person or someone in or below the Department Head category?
Unauthorized raises???