Trail advocates — especially the Journal Star — love to throw out this figure: $29 million. That’s how much moolah it will take, they say, to build a trail next to the Kellar Branch rail line. Thus, it’s too expensive. Thus, we must pull up the rail line.
I wanted to find out how that figure was derived, so I called the Park District. Originally, I was told that all they had were engineering drawings; I asked how they came up with the estimated cost and was told there was “a spreadsheet floating around somewhere” but they didn’t know where it was. Later, when I relayed this story at an RTA meeting at which Bonnie Noble was in attendance, they changed their tune and told me they would get the information right out to me. Here it is:
C. J.:
I have attached the two estimates for your information. The side by side estimate is a square foot estimate based on topographical and sectional survey data and the on-track estimate is a takeoff from prepared construction plans; using cost data from previous jobs, local data and published data; taking into account labor, material, equipment, general conditions, etc. and using prerequisite standards and requirements of ADA, AASHTO (www.transportation.org), regulatory, insurance (liability) and numerous others.
Under the requirements of the ISTEA grant the PPD received, we must build a Class 1 Trail which is a bike path separated from highways by a greenway. If we deviate from a Class 1 Trail, we do not get a dime from the grant. Another consideration is the proposed trail is a combined or mixed-mode trail with both pedestrians and bicycles. The standards for a combined trail require a 10’ wide path with double 2’ shoulders for safety considerations (14’ total width). The completed portions of the trail meet these standards.
David Wheeler
Peoria Park District
And here are the two documents that were attached:
Bike Trail Side-by-Side with Rail
Pimiteoui Trail on Trackline Cost
I received these in March. I want you to take a look at them and tell me what you think. Especially if you’re a city council member, ask yourself if you would accept these estimates from your own city staff members or a hired consultant. Would you believe these numbers based on the information Mr. Wheeler provided?
Look at them and tell me who did these estimates. What materials are being used? How did they come up with the material cost and labor estimates? What is the corridor they chose for this estimate — that is, what is the exact path? Were any attempts made to mitigate the cost by choosing an alternate path, or different materials, or different methods? What is the exact location of all these trestles that are listed? Can they all be justified?
Now that the council is looking to bring all parties together to look for a win-win solution, I would suggest the first step is to do a real feasibility study. Hire an independent engineering firm, provide them with the necessary AASHTO standards and all that, and ask him to come up with the most cost-effective method of achieving a shared rail/trail corridor. Then let’s see what the real cost is. I bet it will be considerably less than $29 million.
Another consultant? Gary isn’t going to like that!
Gary is going to be just fine with it. These figures that the park district gave CJ we got several years ago and they didn’t make sense then and still don’t. An unbiased feasibility study needs to be done and we have said that for years. Someone from out of the area that has no stake in this or any trail, rail, or park district in any area. We would welcome these facts.
If I circulated a document like that first PDF at work I would be laughed out of the office. Yet to the PPD, RTA, and JSEB it’s gospel.
CJ,
Allow me to introduce myself. My name is Michael Friberg, and I am a Landscape Architect and Planner for the Peoria Park District. I prepared both of the cost estimates you had linked in this post. (yes RTP, they are ugly, you want numbers or pretty formatting? :))
First of all, I went through this in what I thought was rather fine detail during the presentation for the Village of Peoria Heights Board back on March 28 or so of this year. During my presentation, I specifically gave my contact information as well as an open invitation to hike the Kellar Branch with me, during which time I would be happy to explain in detail some of the construction issues associated with a trail next to rail along the Kellar Branch. I’m starting to resent the implication that the Park District has avoided these questions, as I gave what I thought was plenty of info on how to contact me in a public setting.
I went into a lot of detail at that meeting about the material, costs, routings, and how I identified the steep slopes requiring special treatment. I think most of the audience was actually quite bored with the level of detail by the time I was done. But I think I did show that I knew what I was talking about. I also went into my qualifications in some detail, but I’m happy to bore you with the short version. I’m registered Landscape Architect in the State of Illinois with a BSLA from the University of Wisconsin at Madison. I have 6 years experience in private practice, 6 years at the Park District. I’ve also worked on the Peoria downtown trail (in metric no less!), the Pekin bike trail, the Morton bike trail, and portions of the Washington bike trail. I’ve completed three park developments for the District, Northtrail, Becker, and Sommer Park North, as well as the Pioneer Parkway/Sommer Street portions of the trail. I’ve built multiple bridges: 130’ steel structure in Robinson Park, a 50’ steel in Northtrail, a 65’ in Camp Wokanda, a 50’ and 35’ steel in Robinson Park South, and I’m working on another 45’ bridge in Robinson south right now. I’ve worked on the Peoria Trail since 1995 continuously in both private practice and public, through 2 redesigns. Finally, I have hiked the entire length of the Kellar at least 8 times, and some sections at least double that. I’d like to think that I know a bit about cost estimating for public projects.
If you’ve had these estimates since March and had questions, why didn’t you just give a call to the Park District and simply ask for the “trail guy?”
The Park District has been working on this project for a long time, and I can tell you that on just about a yearly cycle since I started working on it in 1995, someone has asked “Have you ever thought about putting them side by side?” The answer is yes! Many, many times! The present alignment was approved (after 4 years of IDOT review) in 1998. That 4 years was spent looking at all sorts of routes: side by side, on street, etc.
So as this has gotten way too long, I’ll finish by saying that if you have questions, feel free to contact me, I’d be happy to answer them.
Ah yes, that March meeting, where YOU, Mr. Summers, admitted to being paid by Pioneer Rail Corp — making you a paid propagandist.
The trail-beside-rail option is just another delaying tactic, like the trolley folly that died a natural death when the reality of the costs were revealed.
And another study? Aren’t you the one complaining about Peoria’s legal costs to secure the trail?
Peoris is looking more and more hopeless as a quality place to live.
As you so rightly pointed out, and today the PJS editorial writers agree, the new zoning code is in jeopardy.
The council on Tuesday passed what appears to be an unconstitutional law, allowing police to cause evictions without real evidence, and that same council stalled on the trail resolution. Meanwhile District 150 can’t even police its school bus drivers, as reported by WEEK-TV. No wonder people are moving out of the city in droves.
Hello, Mr. Friberg. Thanks for writing! I wasn’t able to make it to the Park District’s presentation due to a scheduling conflict. When I called the Park District and asked about the side-by-side rail with trail, I was directed to Mr. Wheeler. When I asked for information on how they came up with the $29 million figure, I first got the runaround, then the documents to which I linked in my post, along with the explanatory note I quoted. At no point was I informed that there was a “trail guy” to whom I should speak. The only “trail guy” I knew of (before receiving your note) was Mr. Wheeler. I’ll see if I can get a tape of your presentation from the Heights. It would be helpful to have that presentation documented in written form, however, and made available to the public.
Elaine, I have explained this a million times already. I got paid to create a PowerPoint presentation. I would do the same thing for the Park District if they wanted to pay me to make a PowerPoint presentation for them. I provided a professional service and was compensated for it. I was not paid to advocate for the rail line. In fact, I’ve been advocating for keeping the rail line since 2005, and the PowerPoint presentation wasn’t made until 2007. My being paid for my service does not make me a paid propagandist anymore than Kinkos being paid for their copying service makes them paid propagandists.
Your ad hominem attack is an admission that you have lost the argument on its merits and can only resort to name-calling. Since you have refused to apologize and continue to libel me, you are henceforth banned from commenting on my blog.
Elaine is off her rocker. Some trail proponents at least make an attempt to listen to a compromise. Elaine is as biased as the editorial page of her former employer, the Journal Star.
Elaine was a paid employee of the PJS. The same PJS that is EXTREMELY biased towards the trail. And she accuses CJ of conflict of interest? She was paid by the PJS, and I believe her interests are with who paid her.
Sunday’s editorial cartoon is way below the belt. Maybe rail supporters should sue for libel?
She can’t get too upset about being banned, since has a commenting ban on you at her site, CJ.
Elaine says: “unconstitutional law” that is the most ridiculous and blatantly incorrect statement I’ve heard in a while.
Elaine calling CJ a paid propagandist? Boy is that the pot calling the kettle black! We can only hope she will follow through on her threat and leave town – SOON! Maybe we could even start a “Move Elaine Out Fund”, set up an account at a local bank; How about it, folks, it would improve the quality of the community! Of course, if she moved someplace nice, we would have to bear some guilt for that, hmmm, must be a way to make sure she goes someplace that would be more to her – ah – mindset? BTW, How much does the Park Distict pay the PJS yearly to spout their propaganda? Of course, paid advertising is just part of the story. There seem to be many business arrangements between the PPD and PJS. Cross-sponsorships, free “public service” calendars ads, etc., etc., and that’s just what is in the open. Heaven knows what goes on in the back room. And these people have the audacity (I had to keep it clean) to claim CJ is biased? *****XXXXX@@@@!
I’d give my 2 cents to the move Elaine Hopkins out of Peoria fund. She was a bad reporter at the PJS often distorting the truth to fit her mindset. In person she has a nasty bug-eyed personality without a bit of niceness to her. Elaine go away, go the San Francisco and wear some ragweed in your hair you has been never was a journalist.
How very Rovian of Elaine…
She makes good liberals look bad.
“Liberal” is too right-wing for Elaine – her views are Socialistic.
ok, Mister Ed, I can live with Elaine moving to San Fran. There’s so many wierdos there, it wouldn’t cause a stir. It’s a long trip, so we’ll probably have to buy her a new bike, and a tent to sleep in on the way. No, come to think of it, she wouldn’t like San Fran, they have streetcars there. She doesn’t like public transportation. Might have to sit next to a commoner or somebody who works for a living; perhaps even a lumber company employee! Absolutely horrid, don’t you think? Keep working on it, though, surely we can find someplace she would fit in – besides the looney bin.
Okay, guys, thanks for your support. I want to make it clear that I’m not banning Elaine because she disagrees with me on the rail-to-trail issue. She can disagree with me all she wants, and she can even call me names. But if she’s going to lie about me and impugn my integrity, that’s where I draw the line. I explained it to her previously and demanded a public apology, but she never apologized. So, when she started spreading lies and distortions again, I banned her.
Since she’s banned now, she can’t defend herself here against any subsequent insults, so I think we should stop piling on out of fairness.
Maybe some of the commenters should go to church and re-learn the lessons there. A lot of hate being thrown around.
Why is it, Emtronics, that anytime anything is said against a leftist, it’s “hate”? I would venture to say that nobody on this site, including CJ, who was the one wronged, harbors any “hate” for Elaine. We may not like her; we may not agree with her; and we may find her tactics disgraceful and dishonorable, but we don’t hate her. Hate is reserved for someone truly evil.
I can think of a few people who qualify, as I’m sure everybody can, but Elaine isn’t in the same league with them. She is just badly misguided. We debated San Francisco for her next home, not Hell, so get off the hate bandwagen. Sorry, CJ, but that post was just so inappropriate I had to respond.
Just some more food for thought ….
Super Trains: Plans to Fix U.S. Rail Could End Road & Sky Gridlock
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/transportation/4232548.html
I was in my car on Sheridan at Knoxville waiting for the light to turn when who do I see blowing his horn at me? A big brush-clearing machine complete with what looked like a oversized hydrolic shears and a back end overflowing with cut trees and limbs. Thankfully the cars in front of me edged up so I could get off the tracks.
PeoriaIllinoisan what were you doing parked on the tracks in the first place? Most people know better than to stop on the tracks anywhere. I do believe there are signs posted for same to remind drivers.
I find it interesting that Michael Friberg states that he broke the law at least 8 times by hiking the Kellar Branch. It is a violation of the trespassing law to walk on a railroad property. But with Nichting wanting to break the law and all the others who have stated they hiked the Kellar Branch we seem to have a whole slew of law breakers in this community. Hmmmmmm.
SD, wouldn’t you think that in the process of doing his job, Mr. Friberg would have permission from the city and/or the park district to hike the proposed trail? It’s not railroad property — it belongs to Peoria/Peoria Heights.
JC, The park District would be a non-player in this case except for why he is out of the office while on duty. He would have need permission from the City of Peoria, the Village of Peoria Heights and the Central Illinois Railway and now the Pioneer Industrial Railway before venturing down the rails. Check with the Surface Transportation Board, they rule the roost with America’s railroads.
SD, I haven’t seen a train run over those tracks for over two years. I thought they were abandoned. [/sarcasm]
I want to clear up the idea of who owns the physical property of the Kellar Branch. It is not owned by the STB or PIRY or CIRY or The state of Illinois. It is owned by Peoria and Peoria Heights. The concept of transportation is something that can be in the orbit of the STB but no physical property is assigned to them. Property rights are still in the US Constitution and should be upheld to the limits of the law.
Interstate Commerce is under the jurisdiction of the federal government, so local governments can’t attempt to interrupt it for locally-centered reasons.
Ownership of a railroad line is far different than ownership of a building.
The Cities now think they can make money from something they’ve tried to destroy for a decade. Perhaps when they get their act together, the railroads will talk to them.
Mouse, why is it when I joke no one gets it? I don’t even know this Elaine person so I don’t know if she is left or right. Why is it you assume I do? Go back and re-read some of the posts about her. She was attacked for her opinion, the way she did her job (or didn’t) and even being “off her rocker” or nuts?
I think CJ saw the attacks and posted to that. I simply added my two cents and as usual you jumped down my throat. Maybe you need to be in a pew.
P.S. I wasn’t on the hate wagon. It sounded as though some of you were.
WHOI news had a Fact Finder report on this morning. the little bit that I saw the reporter was comparing the railroads renting the land from the cities for $1 a year to renting an apartment. They then had a sound bite from Randy Oliver saying the cities were entitled to rent at 11% of the land value (at least I think that’s what was said- my kid was asking for breakfast)
At 11% a year, the railroad should own the track after about a decade! By my calculations, Peoria Heights purchased the track within Village limits in 1984 for something like $250,000, 11% of which $27,500, not $79,000. I may be off on the purchase price but it was around that figure.
Neither city is going to get what they want…best to sell it to CIRY or PIRY (and the latter is the only that’s made an offer).
David, land value of TODAY, not 1984. Could you rent a house based on what it would sell for in 1984? Unlikely… unless it’s in Creve Couer.
Let’s see, $79,000 is 11% of what? A little calculation…. Ah, yes: $718,182.
Now, the line was purchased for $250,000 in 1984. What would that be in 2007 dollars? Let’s check. Okay, that’s $496,390.76.
What’s 11% of that? $54,603.
So now there’s going to be an argument about the correct way to figure the value of the railroad corridor. That will undoubtedly get appealed to the STB, and we’ll have another 10 years of bickering and legal costs. Fantastic.
C.J., you’re using faulty reasoning. It doesn’t matter as to what it transfers into today’s dollars. A $40,000 house in Redondo Beach, California in 1981 might transfer into 120,000 today, but the demand might now make it worth $1,000,000.
It’s real estate. It’s different than figuring on inflationary dollars.
And, it doesn’t matter. Because the STB has to approve the money in the end, anyhow. But, you can’t get what you don’t ask for. Might as well ask for the sky, and be prepared to settle for a juniper bush.
Prego, there are lots of ways to figure land valuation. I can guarantee you that neither the way you or I have figured it here is the way railroads figure it. All I’m saying is that the village’s proposed rent will likely be overturned by the STB, and if the city/village tries to fight it, they’ll be throwing more money down a hole like the city’s been doing for over a decade on this thing.
I doubt either one will fight it too vigorously, whatever the STB comes up with. I’m just saying you have to start somewhere… so why not base it on the routine rental/lease expectations in the real world?
C. J., If it’s not inconvenient, please delete my previous post. I messed up the format.
On November 1, 2004, Genesee & Wyoming, Inc’s newly-formed subsidiary, Tazewell & Peoria Railroad, started a 20-year lease of the Peoria & Pekin Union Railway from its owners.
From the Annual SEC filing made March 15, 2005:
“Tazewell & Peoria Railroad, Inc.: On November 1, 2004, our newly formed subsidiary, the Tazewell & Peoria Railroad, Inc. (TZPR) commenced operations under a 20-year agreement to lease the assets of the Peoria and Pekin Union Railway (PPU) located in Peoria, Illinois. Rent is payable annually in advance and the first year’s rent was $3.0 million. Future lease payments are subject to adjustment based on certain economic indicators and customer operations stipulated in the agreement. The owners of the PPU include NS, UP and Illinois Central Railroad Company. The TZPR is operated by our Illinois Region and is contiguous to that region’s existing railroad operations.”
Notice where it says, “Future lease payments are subject to adjustment based on certain economic indicators and customer operations stipulated in the agreement.”
This is a fair lease (”rent”) agreement between owner(s) and lessee. What Peoria and Peoria Heights want is a fixed payment irregardless of economics.
Elaine stated that Peoria is “looking more and more hopeless as a quality place to live.” An opinion in the PJS last week said “Since we can’t get a trail, we should put “obese capital of the world” on billboards…”
I hate to hear that the lack of a couple miles of bike trail makes Peoria “hopeless” or “obese capital of the world.” It is a very sad commentary on both the city and the feelings of it’s residents if such an issue is a deciding factor in the quality of the city.
Peoria can be a quality place to live without a trail, and Peorians can be healthy without a trail. Do not imply that this trail is a necessity for our well-being.
Really, I suppose I’m ranting to the wrong audience… because most everyone here presents rational, thoughtful arguments. I’m glad there are some people out there that promote their opinion in a civil way.
What I would like to know is, who authorised the railco. ciry or cirl to cut the path along the length of tracks that the taxpayers of Peoria owns.And were they the ones that told cirl to cut a 50ft. easement on both sides of the tracks.My reason for asking is I own a home and a 340ft lot line that runs along the tracks.The Mayor nor any peoria official said they knew nothing about this.I stopped the cutting of my property by 20ft with the help of the PPD.Only one of the cutting crew spoke broken english but they did have a bussiness card with Cirl and a 800 number.I called the number and got to talk to a representative of the CO. who almost imediately started cussing me and I ended up with being threatened to bulldose down me and my home.The guy on the phone did say one thing,they were clearing it out for a trail to run along side of the tracks.Someone knows and I would like to know.The arguement over this trail has gotten past stupid blogging.So CJ if you could do a little digging and let me know whose lying the city the park board or a trail group.
CW — I forwarded your comment to the Mayor of Peoria Heights and the Peoria City Manager, since I couldn’t tell where exactly you lived (you since explained in another comment). Nevertheless, here are their responses:
Mark Allen, Mayor of Peoria Heights:
And City Manager Randy Oliver:
CJ,thank you for fowarding my comments to both Mark Allen and Randy Oliver.It appears I might not get any answers on who or if anyone called CIRL.But I do know that if I did nothing my neighbors fencing and alot treeline would be gone today.I do think the City of Peoria should come out publicly about what the intensions are for this taxpayer owned property.We all have a say in this and it seems like the whole thing is being kept behind closed doors and only carefully worded bits are being released.We have a Museum to build,A Zoo to enlarge, millions of dollars in additional projects.Yet we can not even put a playground in some of our poorer neighborhoods that are riddled with crime.Where are the priorities here? 29MILLIONDOLLARS