At the last Uplands Residential Association meeting, Kathleen Woith from Lakeview and Pat Barton made a sales pitch to encourage residents to vote for the upcoming sales tax referendum to support the proposed downtown museum. (In case you’re wondering, two of the ten people in attendance were outspoken supporters, and I was of course an outspoken opponent; the rest were either on the fence or didn’t tip their hand.)
But during the presentation, the question came up about flooding. Woith explained that the block as well as Water Street were both going to be raised above the flood plain. She used the railroad tracks downtown as a guide. She said we would notice that, even when it floods downtown, the tracks don’t get submerged because they were raised above the flood plain. The museum would be raised to the level of the railroad tracks, and thus would be protected from flooding.
So I went down to take a look:
If you’re looking for the tracks, you won’t see them in this picture because they’re underwater. Fortunately, Woith also said the museum will have flood insurance.
Not to worry, C.J.
The museum will have a ” flooding-only Lewis and Clark” exhibit where museum goers will be able to experience first hand the trials and tribulations of these early explorers.
Participants will be escorted into a john boat where they paddle their way up and down the swollen waters of the Illinois, all while looking across the river and exclaiming “Hey, is that a new chain restaurant in East Peoria?”.
Free admission will be granted to those customers who can navigate the john boat closest to their parking spot.
OMG Too funny, Mazr!
oh yea, this is the “smoking gun” you anti museum folks were looking for. You guys are so smart.
Guess what- Duh,They are going to build the museum up and out of the flood plain. So the most a flooding event like this may effect the museum is maybe some parking on Water St might have to be closed for awhile.
Bill……the actual project is a “smoking gun”.
The designers are required (by code) to set the levels of occupiable floors above the equivalent of a 100 year flood event. This requirement applies to The Block or any other new construction on Water Street.
Yes, I am a Block proponent. I also appreciate the idea of new urbanism. However, I find it interesting that in the Heart of Peoria Plan there is actually a rendering of storefronts right along the river. The plan shows beautiful old brick buildings (which do not exist there currently) with canopies and cafe tables right next to a marina. The plan mentions the need to make some considerations for flooding, like flood gates. Have you ever seen flood gates? They aren’t attractive and that’s probably why they weren’t included in the quaint rendering. The Block is much higher than those buildings shown in the “plan” yet you like to talk about the “potential flooding” of the The Block?
I’m not aware that any of the old buildings on the same side as The Block are flood prone. Are you?
bill: so that multi-million dollar underground parking deck below the museum won’t flood? Wow, you guys really do know magic.
As a kid, I remember the back of Sears being flooded every so many years and yet they always remained open. Next complaint?
Old Chicago was built on stilts so they would be able to remain open during a flood. They’re closed.
Themis — Are you suggesting that, if the deck is flooded and unusable, the museum can still operate without any problem? I wonder why the deck is needed at all, then.
Personally, I think you have to expect there to be flooding. It’s by the river.
I just thought it was funny that Ms. Woith mentioned multiple times how protected from flooding it’s going to be because it will be raised to the same level as the train tracks that “never flood,” when the next day, the tracks were submerged. That was the only point of this post: humor.
Yes, this is the fourth highest the river has been since records have been kept. The last time it got above this level was 1985. That was almost 25 years ago. Before that is was 1979 and 1943. The museum parking deck may have to close for a couple of weeks every few years when the river floods but people can park in other areas those few times. No big deal.
The restaurants on the pad were forced to close because their access was cut off. So was Steak n Shake in East Peoria. The original plan for RiverFront Village was to have a skywalk over to whatever was built on the Sears Block. I don’t think that skywalk is included in the current plans at this point. The pad was designed to have the river flow under it which it is doing now. This should be of no surprise to anyone.
The River Station was built 100 years ago before anyone cared. Now every few years they have to sandbag it, again no big deal. Since it has been a restaurant it has never been flooded inside.
So why are the locks and dams releasing the raising flood waters? Someone lose the key?
You people who are SOOOOO willing to get your little museum built no matter the cost, are ridiculous!
ANY type of flooding leaves a ton of smelly debris behind. Lets see the museum people have fun getting that crap out of their parking deck!
There is also the problem of having a museum, which is supposed to house precious artifacts from Peoria’s past, subjected to that kind of pollution, etc. What will the Smithsonian say when they send us King Tut’s tomb, only to find out the museum smells of dead fish and……what else?
and some of you that are SOOOOO against the museum for any reason are ridiculous!
That would be cool if they did send us King Tut’s Tomb. That would draw thousands!
Well, I’m not against the museum in any way at all. I think it would be wonderful to have a modern planetarium, IMAX, and whatever and I’d pay the $25 to see an IMAX movie and maybe even 3 times to see the same movie, they are that good. But, IMAX is going out of business at various locations across the country, we already have a nice planetarium but the people that run it use slide projectors and other crap instead of using the projector designed for the building and making the show interesting for the public. What adult wants to go there and see a 3rd grade presentation on the planets? No, I would love this type of museum I just don’t think that is the best use for the Sears block, Peoria’s highest real estate property (so we’ve been told) and if it is such a wonderful deal, why isn’t the private sector ponying up the money? Why do taxpayers have to pay? Our local governments (city and county) have a bad track record when it comes to TIFs, and developments. We have a severe sewer problem knocking on the taxpayer door and you want to tax us for a museum that isn’t even called the museum tax, then tell us it will expire. Name one tax that has? How do we know that the county board won’t use this very same tax down the road for something else?? They aren’t above it. We know how sneaky the City has been with the Garbage Fee that doesn’t go to garbage so yes, it’s hard to take you people seriously. If this museum fails, and it might, then guess who will be left holding the bag? Not the construction jobs. Not the developers nor the big mover and shakers, and not CAT but we, the people again will be faced to pay. No, expand Lakeview with the money raised and show us the success there and sell the Sears lot to a private developer and let us collect some tax revenue for a change. I am sick of taxes, a little here, a little there. If you screw me, then do it all at once so at least I can smoke a cigarette afterward. Getting it in the butt every other place is too demanding. Vote NO. These people can’t be trusted nor can the government.
The museum site is at the lowest point along Water Street. The area is flooded only about a couple of blocks to the north and a couple of blocks to the south of Main Street.
BTW, the railroad track was raised to its present level in 2000.
Emtronics: You are right. People should be suspicious of this tax that just uses a generic word instead of museum–the money could be used for any facility. Also, I think we all agree that a first-class museum would be a great idea, but not in this location and not at taxpayers’ expense during these less-than-favorable economic times. I guess I will listen to the sales pitch at the March 19 West Peoria Residents’ Association meeting, but my mind is made up now.
The County Board has said the tax will expire. It’s part of the agreement. They have been very clear about that. It’s called a “sunset” and this one will sunset in a maximum of 20 years. And as far as leaving it to private developers, how do you like Riverfront Village and Midtown Plaza?
Bill h,
You know what Bill? King Tut’s Tomb will NEVER come to a Peoria museum. You know why? Because this museum is anything but first class. In order to have a first class museum, you need to have first class people running the thing. You need to have a first class PLAN! Gee Bill, are you in the construction business?
Pat,
So the County Board has this and they have said that……….? With the exception of Widmer, the county board members have been operating over the line since the museum group approached them.
IF I RECALL, AND I DO, THE MUSEUM GROUP SAID IT WOULD NEVER HAVE TO COME TO THIS IN THE FIRST PLACE. A SALES TAX? FOR A MERE 20 YEARS? DON’T FORGET, THIS SO-CALLED TAX IS/WAS SUPPOSED TO FUND SEVERAL OTHER ‘PROJECTS’ ALONG THE WAY. WHOSE POCKET IS GOING TO GET LINED NEXT?
Boondoggle.
I’m somewhat on the fence as far as how I am going to vote, but a question that I have and is probably on everyone’s mind: If the Museum Group can’t pay the operational bills or find enough corporate sponsors for ongoing operations, which I don’t think they will be able to do, then what?
Too many “ifs.” It’s another “build it and they will come dream”–just like District 150’s dreams.
If the museum does not produce the needed cash and is forced to fold the County still has needs to be met, for instance the Bellwood Nursing home is need of replacement or serious upgrading.
Since the 1/4 cent tax imposed a few years ago, the county has averaged about 3.7 million per year in revenue, so an additional 1/4 cent will bring in a similar amount.
Pat, is this “sunset” tax kind of like the garbage tax?
If this tax is still around in 10 years, guess what? It’s not going anywhere. It will be forgotten, just like the many other “this is the real deal, just trust us” projects that have come down the pike. And there still will be no viable residential development in the downtown area and Dunlap will be on their third expansion and Peoria will be saying “What happened?”
Fix 150 first before anything else. That will get things moving.
Why isn’t this being listed as a separate referendum on the ballot? Can’t there be a vote for a museum and a vote for Belwood?
King Tut’s tomb? Oh Come on. PEORIA Histerical Society… remember?
I agree that District 150 is by far the most pressing need of the community. Is there anyone who posts on these blogs that feels that the changes that must be instated to turn it around can take place under the “leadership” of Hinton?
New voice, people like me that want a museum are not evil. We simply want more for Peoria than what we currently have. There’s no conspiracy. No alterior motives. State and Federal funding has dried up. Museums all over the country rely on public funding…to a larger degree than this will. This museum will not have a mortgage, which is the no 1 reason museums fail. This is a positive project…education, jobs, commerce and entertainment. I know you won’t change your mind(I can tell by your use of ALL CAPS) but there’s a lot of us out here that think this is more than worth it.
55 ILCS 5/5?1006.5
Sec. 5?1006.5. Special County Retailers’ Occupation Tax For Public Safety, Public Facilities, or Transportation.
3) The proposition for public facility purposes shall be in substantially the following form:
“To pay for public facility purposes, shall (Peoria county) be authorized to impose an increase on its share of local sales taxes by (insert rate)?”
(With sunset provision)
“To pay for public facility purposes, shall (Peoria county) be authorized to impose an increase on its share of local sales taxes by (insert rate) for a period not to exceed (insert number of years)?”
Pat — Of course the people in favor of the museum tax are not evil. We all want good things for Peoria; we just have different opinions of how to accomplish them.
Pat,
Of course you are not ALL evil………..
I have always been for a museum in Peoria. I am thinking most ‘Block the Blockers’ feel somewhat the same. We all have are reasons why we do not believe in this project.
I have said many times before, this project has been mismanaged FOR YEARS! The wrong people have been pushing the wrong project. The Museum Group has NEVER gotten the public on-board in support of their plan. These people have a history of silencing ANY criticism. These ridiculous Town Hall Meetings are indicative of the Museum Group’s attitude towards criticism of any kind!
PeoriaILL asked “If the Museum Group can’t pay the operational bills or find enough corporate sponsors for ongoing operations, which I don’t think they will be able to do, then what?”
This question has been asked countless times! You know what!?! We NEVER get an answer!
Pat,
The CURRENT price tag of this ‘museum’ sits at $136 million! That is a lot to pay for a little education, 12 full-time/30 part-time jobs, and questionable entertainment [I will believe IMAX when I see IMAX].
LAST!!! These Peoria County Board members who ‘promise’ us this is a 20 year tax…where will THEY be in 20 years? Where will they be in the next 5, 10, 15 years? Do you think THEY will be around to answer for another ‘Gateway Building’ debacle downtown? OF COURSE THEY PROMISE…………………………
Diane: I wish I had faith in the next choice of a superintendent. I am very skeptical about the “pool” of potential superintendents waiting in the wings to take on a school district that is in so much trouble. I think the last few months have been an eyeopener for many–certainly I doubt that Cahill would be gone without an awareness by the board, etc., that there are so many “watchers.”
Hinton will be gone–that’s already decided. In the meantime, we have to keep letting the district know how the public feels, etc., on every issue. Crowds at the board meetings wouldn’t hurt–especially, since Wacky Wednesday on the agenda for tomorrow night.
Oops! Museum post–and I’m writing about 150–Imagine that!
Not sure where we got off track there, Sharon. I think the next Superintendent might need to be someone who is not a “traditional” Superintendent, if you catch my drift.
Diane: District 150 has been off track for a long time. The worst thing that the district did was to ignore the steady and increasingly growing stream of families leaving Peoria and/or District 150. They never made an attempt to find out why people were moving out (they made the wrong guesses) and, therefore, couldn’t take meaningful steps to stop the flight. They assumed that all movement out of the district was north of War Memorial–and pinned all their hopes on two Edison schools–Northmoor and Rolling Acres as the only two inticements to stay in 150. That hasn’t worked. Then they did absolutely nothing to improve the high schools–especially, Manual, Woodruff, and Peoria High and, of course–my opinion: discipline.
Just curious, Diane–was Wacky Wednesday the first time you began to see problems in 150? I have a feeling it may have been the straw that broke some backs.
Thanks for the attempt at injecting a bit of humor into the discussion CJ, it certainly seems as the weeks roll along toward the election, that humor is one thing in short supply regarding this project and the proposed sales tax.
Ms. Woith was correct, that as part of the plan by the City to improve Water Street from Hamilton Street to Liberty Street, portions of Water Street will be raised as much as three feet, to approximately the height of the railroad tracks. That would be to about the level of a “50 year” flood. Interesting that we’ve now experienced two floods to approximately the “50 year” level within the past year.
Any structures built on the Sears Block however, by city code, must be built 0.1 foot above the Core of Engineers “100 year” flood level. This would include the single level parking deck planned for the site. I don’t have the info with me on Sunday evening as to the exact level of the “100 year” flood, but I do know that the river has never reached that level in Peoria.
However, this does mean that even from the “improved Water Street” level, there would be about a two foot elevation increase to the floor of the parking deck. So in the event of a severe flood, if Water Street is closed to traffic, and therefore the entrance to the underground parking deck might be unaccessible, as long as it’s not above the “100 year” flood level, the parking deck should remain dry.
Hope this helps clarify this plans.
PI: One of the many unanswered questions. Citizens have been told that Peoria County will ‘own’ the building during the bonding period of up to twenty years. Since there is no management agreement with an operator, possibly Lakeview/PRM (it would seem that this management agreement would need to be put out for bid) taxpayers do not know what they are getting. It would appear that Peoria County would own the building and if the museum failed, then the County would need to find some adaptive reuse for the ‘public facility’ previously known as a museum.
The intent of the sales tax is to fund the museum. Nevertheless, there are several documents and processes to accomplish, if the referendum were to pass, between April 8, 2009 and January 1, 2010 when the tax could be collected. If all the museum ducks could not be gotten in a row, then what? Would the County Board turn back or cancel the tax? Bellwood sits out there at an estimated $39.2M (unless it has changed) and then there is talk that the Sheriff would like to expand the jail with ?price tag. If the jail were to be expanded, then would Bellwood need to be relocated? I have heard talk that Bellwood would be moved into the City. So, how would taxpayers pay for Bellwood and a potential jail expansion? What about Peoria County schools (other than D150) which are looking for building capital funds?
Pat: I do not think the museum people are evil. Please remember that many taxpayers like and support museums, just not this plan and this funding mechanism. I agree with CJ — different priorities. When I read a post like Shay’s at another of CJ’s blog entries ….
http://peoriachronicle.com/2009/03/11/glen-oak-school-neighborhood-impact-zone-adopted/
I am reminded that many people who live in an older neighborhood are struggling for the various reasons Shay’s clearly identified.
The museum plan has morphed along the way, in approximately 2005 it was a 2 cent tax for $6M for 12 years — now four years later it is an 0.25% tax for $40M for a payback of $72M for 20 years — bigger price tag, features changed and so on.
While I admire the tenacity of the museum supporters hanging in there to get the job done for the past eight years — there has been several high ticket community projects approved in the interim:
Civic Center, Library Expansion, two new TIFS, failed TIF and so on while the
Zoo and Children’s Museum are still looking to meet fundraising goals.
Meanwhile, Ameren bills have increased and looking to increase again, state income tax to be raised,
CSO (Combined Sewer Overflow) Project waits for funding at $150-300M
citizens losing jobs right and left
and when is enough enough?
Now taxpayers are being asked to expand government to include ‘owning and operating’, even if nominally a museum.
New public policy, raising funding via a sales tax to give those public monies to a not-for-profit organization to construct a ‘public facility’. The County will have what type of representation via the construction agreement? Yet another unknown.
And I could go on and on and on about the challenges with this plan and this type of funding ….. we just cannot afford this project on top of all the other projects. When you go to purchase a car, the total cost is not what is being brought to your attention, just the ‘small’ payment that you can afford. Enough small payments and then you cannot pay all the bills.
Living in an older neighborhood and working with many older neighborhood leaders for the past fifteen years illustrate that quality of life issues are about the basics not the sprinkles of a new museum. If we had had more interaction as a community at the early stages for funding at a local level vs. trying to fund at the federal and state levels and then coming to the locals at the 11th hour, the conversation would have been different and perhaps the buyin would have been broad based to get the job done. Thank you for the dialogue.
My son fell asleep in the car yesterday, so I went on a little drive up and down Knoxville and on Prospect heading into the Heights. My observation:
I would have loved to have the sign business supplying Beth Akeson and the “Build the Block” folks with their signs. Talk about “recession busting”.
I’m going today to order a “Block the Block” sign.
#Pat sez: “The County Board has said the tax will expire. It’s part of the agreement. They have been very clear about that. It’s called a “sunset” and this one will sunset in a maximum of 20 years. And as far as leaving it to private developers, how do you like Riverfront Village and Midtown Plaza?”
The City Council said years ago that the HRA tax will expire after 20 years. Guess what? They found another use, add on to the Civic Center and we still have the HRA Tax. With the facility tax, guess what? After 20 years the county board will decide that they need the tax for say…Belwood and off we go. Nope, name one tax that has gone away. Better yet, get the city to drop that slap in the face Garbage Fee (like most of those trying to get elected said they would. Hint: Van Auken) and I’ll vote YES on your museum.
As for Riverfront Village and Midtown, remember who is paying for that. We are as like this museum mess, the public will be left with the bill, not the developer.
If anyone out there really thinks this tax will go away after 20 years because it is in writing or the board says so, then I am Idi Amin. Step up Peoria and stop this bull. Build your museum but NOT with public money. Look at this way pro-museum folks, if say down the road your idea really does suck and is losing money, then come begging, maybe we will vote you in some help then.
Em: I agree. The reason that we are even having the discussion is that the state legislators voted to amend the state statute which previously was limited to a sales tax for public safety and public transportation. Never say never when it comes to developing and passing a ‘legal’ way to increase taxes.
P.S. You are not Idi! 🙂
MAZR: Tell me where I can get one. On second thought, too late. Oh well.
Please recognize that there is a difference between the City of Peoria (being a home rule governmental entity) and the County Board (which is not). The City, as a home rule entity, can pass a tax increase by a simple majority vote of the council. That’s why you still have the HRA tax and the garbage tax, it’s the will of a majority of the Council.
The County Board does not have that authority. By law, they could not extend the proposed sales tax after 20 years, even if they all agred that they’d like to do so. Sure, as Karrie points out, the state government could change the powers given to the County governments, but if we want to play what if games, make sure you include what if the City can’t find an alternative developer for the site and it sits vacant for 20 years. I’d suggest that possibility is just as likely as concerns the county board might somehow find a way to extend the tax.
“but if we want to play what if games, make sure you include what if the City can’t find an alternative developer for the site and it sits vacant for 20 years. I’d suggest that possibility is just as likely as concerns the county board might somehow find a way to extend the tax.”
the Whole Truth,
I can’t say for sure whether you are part of the museum group in some capacity, but I would have to say you are REALLY reaching here. Your statement [see above] sounds like one of those last-ditch, desperate attempts of the museum PRM to ‘convince’ the public how badly we need this museum!
More scare tactics?
If the city of Peoria could not find an alternative developer for a prime piece of downtown property, then [fill in the blank].
I have many friends [yes, it is true] living in both Woodford and Tazewell Counties. They are watching this ‘museum’ battle with interest. Everyone I have spoken with is already bracing for the day when Peoria County comes knocking on the door.
Wonder what would happen if that day ever came?
I am thinking the people of W & T Counties believe the people of Peoria County are more than a little nuts.
OK, plain English: Give a governing body a new tax, and they’ll use it. Have them say it will go away, never. No precedent of any tax going away. (Please don ‘t site Civil War Taxes as the only way one can avoid taxes is death and all veterans of that war are dead.)
Part of the funding for the museum comes from private sources. Part according to the breakdown comes from grants from the federal and state government. Grants are tax money that you and I have paid for years and now they want to put an additional tax on us for sales tax to help build and support the museum. So we are being taxed three times for the same project. Does this sound right? What’s wrong with this picture? Every time someone says they are getting a grant from a public body its actually tax money already collected from the general public. Its not free money from some unknown source. So if we ok the referendum we are voting to tax ourselves three times for the same project. Something is definitely wrong with this picture.
EM said,”No precedent of any tax going away. (Please don ‘t site Civil War Taxes as the only way one can avoid taxes is death and all veterans of that war are dead.)”
Her is another link to a tax that went away.
As an aside the Spanish American War was the setting of the tele communcation tax that was repealed in 2004-5.
What does veteran status ( alive or dead) have anything to do with taxes?
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history.do?action=tdihArticleCategory&id=5688
LOL I knew it was either the Civil War or the Spanish American War. FEH
and to answer your question: nothing, it was tongue n cheek. Lighten up.
Just addressing the original subject of this thread, the rail track paralleling Water Street also flooded during the Sept. ’08 flood that was about 9 inches shy of the current crest. Back in Sept., the Tazewell & Peoria RR actually ran trains at the peak of the flooding, which made for a very bizarre photo op, a locomotive making like a boat.
I’m not sure this all has much bearing on the merits of the museum project, however. Other than the fact that Ms. Woith was apparently the recipient of some bad information.
You can see the tracks again today. Old Chicago is back open.
Got my Build the Block sign in my yard. Life is good.
Golly Bill,
With intelligent, well-informed voters like yourself backing the museum………. no wonder this is a loosing proposition!