Here it is, folks: This is the place for all things KCDad. Here you can discuss communism, KCDad-style. Or you can discuss the teachings of Jesus as interpreted by KCDad. Perhaps you want to just sit and soak in the profound teaching of KCDad himself. This is the place. Now is the time.
But from now on, if the conversation on any other post strays away from the post’s original topic into KCDad-Land (which will be determined at my sole discretion), the comments will be moved to this post for that discussion to continue (hence the “repository” moniker). I’ll leave a little note in the comments section of future posts if the discussion is redirected here.
That doesn’t mean that all of KCDad’s comments (or responses to KCDad’s comments) will be moved here. He isn’t being quarantined. This is simply an attempt to keep posts on topic. As long as the comments are related to the original topic, they’re fine. It’s only when they veer into the “communism vs. capitalism” or “The Gospel According to KCDad” or similarly-recurring motifs that they’ll be moved to this thread for further argument and development.
And yes, I’m the first comment here — I believe this is the first time I’ve ever been the first to reply to my own post. But I thought I’d kick off a good, rollicking “Gospel According to KCDad” discussion.
I don’t believe that the Bible speaks against ownership, from a human perspective (i.e., Joe owning something that Bob doesn’t own). Abraham was wealthy. Even when he left Ur, he took a lot of his possessions with him. Job was wealthy. Joseph was wealthy. Daniel was wealthy. David was wealthy. Zaccheus gave only half his possessions to the poor upon conversion, in addition to repaying those he had defrauded. Churches were instructed to give to missionaries and their pastors — presumably they owned something of value that they could give.
KCDad is right, though, that from God’s perspective, He owns everything and we are just stewards of the time, talents/gifts/abilities, and material possessions He’s given us. As stewards, we’re responsible to make the best use of all those things for the sake of the Kingdom of God.
Yes, C.J.–that is probably closer to my view about wealth, also–I knew we could all find common ground because Kcdad, you, and I are all reading the same book.
C.J., I hadn’t read your new post–just your first comment. Haven’t many Americans made the discussion about health care a capitalism vs. socialism (often equated with communism) argument? Therefore, how have any of Kcdad’s comments been off topic? I just don’t think Kcdad started that argument–I hear it on the news and at the town hall meetings on TV every day. I think these issues are at the very heart of the health-care discussion and that as Christians we may have to look to Scriptures to get some perspective on how we feel about offering health care to all. I’ll try to look at views of Scripture that seem to oppose my own.
Excellent idea CJ, now no one has to be concerned that every conversation they have on this blog will eventually fall into a debate about communism as it always does with KC.
You probablly wont find any because the Christian faith is based on loving thy neighbor as thyself and putting the needs of others over self interest. If father God weeps over the death of a sparrow then of course he is concerned with the needs of the poor and the socially down trodden. Jesus clearly states that the greatest commandment is love so by turning ones back on those who cannot afford health care you are ignoring the command to love unconditionally.
Why is it ok for every conversation to talk about capitalism and money but not ok to talk about the alternatives? Are we so brainwashed that being American means being a money grubbing, profit worshiping capitalist? I don’t think so… it doesn’t mean that now and NEVER did. Only the English settlers brought that sick mentality with them. (Certainly not the Dutch Quakers, the German Amish or French Huguenots.)
We just assume that insurance companies, banks and investment firms hold the answer to financial woes??? (They are the CAUSE of them)
I’ll never forget about 7 years ago, we brought our infant son to a friends house for a party. While there, I met a girl who noticed how attached and attentive we were to our newborn.
She moved close to me and whispered “Be careful – he is only on loan to you. God can take him back at any time”. I know what she meant by that, but at the time and still now I found it a little offensive.
Back to KCDad though… he used to take me aback with some of his comments and ideas, but now I kind of dig him. Then a few weeks ago we met. He is totally normal and in fact, a guy that would be totally cool to hang out with. 😉
Thanks, CJ – I was beginning to think this site had become The KCDAD Chronicle. I’ll be curious to see just how you implement this going forward, like when responses are half on topic and then the remaining half are kcdad’s Christian/communist rationale. What was the point of kcdad creating his own blog, anyway? I continue to be amazed with the amount of patience you show and for honoring nearly unfettered speech.
Sorry, off topic, you can delete if you like. I am just curious. I did not know District 150 now hires felons. I was reading the article about coach Gross from RHS. I do know if they do that is a good thing because it gives opportunity to the ones like Gross to turn their life around with a fresh start. Maybe there is some good at District 150 after all.
“the amount of patience you show and for honoring nearly unfettered speech”
Gosh, can’t have THAT in America!
Sure you can, kcdad, you have your own blog – open to the public. Why is it again you post everything here and so little on your blog? Why did CJ question why he shouldn’t call you a troll? Why were you kicked off, as you say, from so many other Christian blogs?
Jon–Really, kicked off “Christian” blogs. That is absolutely amazing to me. No, I lie–I wish that it did amaze me. I guess there are some Christian virtues such as patience, longsuffering, kindness, etc., from which blog posters are exempt. If nothing else, take advantage of Kcdad’s knowledge–it certainly isn’t superficial. If, as a Christian, someone considers him an enemy of Christianity (which is really absurd), then consider him your mission field–see if you can present the gospel coherently because there are many in our mission field that are far more difficult and anatagonistic–certainly, they wouldn’t be won over by returning the antagonism. I expect all of you to attack me soon, also, because I truly am on the blog too often. I would be embarrassed and hurt. But I probably would bounce back quickly. C.J. sets his blog up nicely–see Kcdad’s or my name and just ignore them. I must admit there aren’t any names that I can resist. I find that all of you give me something to think about or sometimes shake my head in disbelief.
Sharon, I read on kcdad’s blog the following:
“I suppose there are sighs of relief going up all over the place… kcdad is off my site… whoopee! So I have started my own. I have been banned from every Christian Forum I could find…. simply for being “a heretic”… that is, choosing to think instead of just believing…I was even banned from an “Ex-Christian” site because I dared to question their irrational hatred for anyone who isn’t irrationally anti-religion. Their belief structures parallel Christian fundamentalists exactly.”
BTW, one of my favorites, entitled “Sayonara” begins:
“I am, wacko, you are correct, a sad piece of crap who complains… I do, however, offer plenty of positives, and do not “take off” on just anyone….”
And ends:
“Well… I am done.”
Alas, that apparently did not come to pass.
Anyway, when you said “I guess there are some Christian virtues such as patience, longsuffering, kindness, etc., from which blog posters are exempt”, I couldn’t help but think of kcdad.
Stephen: Your “You probablly wont find any because the Christian faith is based on loving thy neighbor as thyself and putting the needs of others over self interest.”
You do know the Bible–honestly, I don’t expect to find any Scripture that doesn’t condone giving to the poor. C.J., most of your examples come from the Old Testament–except for the wee little man who sat up in the Sycamore tree who wanted his Lord to see and was hated by everyone as a tax collector. That set me to thinking. Unlike many, I truly do not see any inconsistencies between the Old and New Testaments. (And that doesn’t need to be a point of argument; it’s just my belief; nothing more; nothing less). However, Jesus did seem to stir things up a bit with his often used words (or implications) such as “you’ve heard it said in the past, but…” Jesus didn’t choose any rich men for his disciples–and those who did have money were asked to follow him and told that foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the son of man has no place to lay his head. Jesus owned nothing and seemed to expect his disciples to follow suit. I don’t believe that he necessarily expects us to do the same (and it sometimes scares me to think he might just have meant it). I just don’t see much in the New Testament that would indicate that Jesus spent a whole of time trying to acquire followers among the rich. Except Nicodemus, who seems to have sought Jesus out and then the rich young ruler who couldn’t quite come to grips with Jesus’ words. There must have been a reason for his choices and they must have some implications for us.
My cousins (one of whom is a nurse), their spouses, and I (about six of us) just went out to dinner and made all of this a topic of conversation. One cousin and her husband who own a florist shop have to pay dearly for insurance and both just had cancer–and many out of pocket expenses. She recalls being kicked out of the hospital in Peoria because her insurance had run out–even though she still needed attention. They are fortunate enough to have been able to handle these trials in their lives, but not all are so lucky. I just don’t know how to justify this treatment–and others in America have far worse stories to tell–in a country where so many of us profess to be Christians–and especially when so many of those who oppose national health care seem to be professing Christians, who have great insurance and evidently feel they deserve it–God forbid may even feel blessed by God. Please, please help me to understand why you believe that God would bless a country that is so calloused toward those less fortunate than those of us who can count on good health care and who seem to live in fear that some others might take away our privileged status? The country has enough money to finance two wars–one which many believe was probably unwise (another argument)–and to finance a NCLB Act that is costing more than any of you realize with little potential for results. I fear America, like one of the Biblical kings, might be “weighed in the balances and found wanting.” Sorry, I just think sometimes American Christians are too focused on the sins of non-Christians and fail to see their own extreme selfishness.
Jon: The speck in one’s eye as opposed to the log in one’s own–may not apply 🙂 I am about done with all of this–I’m now beating a very dead horse. However, I do have to say this–hope you understand, Kcdad. I really do believe that in trying to make us see another point of view, Kcdad misrepresents himself. It took me a while to figure him out, but now that I have met him personally and learned that we have mutual friends who think highly of him–actually all from his own church–I just have a completely positive feeling about him. We haven’t discussed it but I think we may both share some past conflicts with some staunch fundamentalists–and I once proudly labeled myself as such. I have been fortunate enough to have worked through those conflicts and to be grateful for all the good that I learned from them in my youth and and all I gained from those whose religious views, nevertheless, have sometimes sent me whirling. Kcdad just has probably had all the bad with little of the good experiences–and I can understand that.
Sharon, I see that you comment on many different blogs but have yet to see you comment on kcdad’s. Have you been over to read it? Here’s another post I find intriguing:
“There is an interesting discussion on PC amongst Janel, Sharon and I (and others) about schools… I will post a link…Sharon will come around eventually. I know how difficult it must be to realize that a 45 year career really didn’t accomplish much other than make her feel good and provide a good income and retirement for her. That is America… if it makes you feel good it must be good.”
From reading your posts, Sharon, I find you to be “patient, longsuffering, kind, etc.” (well, maybe not when it comes to D150 administration:)) and you continue to show that towards kcdad.
Jon, thanks for visiting my site, I look forward to your comments… don’t neglect C.J.s, though… we need all the voices we can get here!
I’m a bit of a web/IP novice, so I am reluctant to comment on your site due to the following stated therein:
Notice! This user has turned on the option that logs your IP address when posting.
Anonymous – this user has disabled anonymous posting.
Thanks for pointing that out Jon, I removed that IP thingy…. you can now post anonymously…
Jon: I was planning to go to bed–but couldn’t resist one more look to see what was up. Before the Wacky Wednesday fight with 150 a year ago, I knew nothing about blogs–whatever did I do with all my time? I’ve found that C.J.’s blog is the place where most meet. I hate to slight others (or they are probably grateful) but I spend too much time at this as it is. I respond on Emerge and now Laura Petele’s 150 blog and sometimes Diane’s Peoria Rocks and Emtronics, and read Elaine Hopkins and sometimes Bill Dennis. I didn’t know until yesterday or today that Kcdad had a blog–I have been there once; haven’t taken the time to figure out how to navigate it, but I will probably go back.
Now, I’m confused. Your “Sharon will come around eventually. I know how difficult it must be to realize that a 45 year career really didn’t accomplish much other than make her feel good and provide a good income and retirement for her. That is America… if it makes you feel good it must be good.”
I’m confused–this seems to be a quote and if it is about me, it is a bit of the “most unkindest cut of all”–ettu, Brute–depending on who Brutus is. If it is about me and if I’ve seen it earlier than it must not have cut too deeply. Actually, it is probably a Kcdad quote from the times when we were just coming to understand one another. I said some fairly unkind things to him, also. In some sense, his prediction was right–I did eventually come around. Of course, I am never tempted to accept someone else’s assessment of my career–it gave me way too much satisfaction and good feedback–except I was recently crushed to the bone that Jim Stowell admitted that I hadn’t challenged him. 🙂 I believe Kcdad came to my defense at that point. I was a teacher; I’m used to being attacked one minute and loved the next–that’s what was great about kids.
Do you all really understand Kcdad’s heading, “Of course, I am a communist; I am a follower of Jesus”? Therefore, we know for sure it isn’t the godless Communism that comes to our minds and to which we are probably reacting when Kcdad uses the word. I believe he believes that Jesus’ kingdom will be more communist than capitalist, and it is starting to sound quite reasonable to me–the more I know Jesus.
KCDad, you still didn’t answer my earlier question:
Why do you post so much here and so little on your own blog? Why even have your own blog?
Sharon said “In some sense, his prediction was right–I did eventually come around.”
Are you thus saying kcdad’s quote about your career (I know how difficult it must be to realize that a 45 year career really didn’t accomplish much other than make her feel good and provide a good income and retirement for her) on his blog was correct? Or are you just saying that you like him now, and that you don’t really care what he thinks of your career? I suspect that it did hurt you to some degree that Jim said what he did – you must have higher expectations of Jim than you do of kcdad considering what kcdad said about your entire career.
I am neither offended when KCDad says he is a Communist nor enamored when he says he is a follower of Jesus. I think his interactions with people on these blogs says volumes about the type of person he is.
kcdad, while the IP address thingy is no longer there, I am still unable to log in anonymously (the only option is to sign up and sign in to Live Journal)
Jon: I meant I came around to understanding Kcdad or to coming to agreement with him. No, I certainly didn’t come to agree with him about my career–to admit that would be a slap at so many students who gave me such gifts–and keep giving back to me. I could be wrong, but I doubt that Kcdad would repeat that comment today–I think I remember the discussions that elicited that comment. About Jim–I mentioned it, so that could be interpreted as hurt. Jim and I have since had good conversations via e-mail. I’m not even sure why Jim chose to strike out like that at that moment–I was taken aback because I didn’t think that I had provoked him at that moment–I have been provoking him of late. He has to be a bit disappointed, also, that I don’t support him as much as he may have had every right to expect. I’d like to be able to agree with him, but my feelings to the contrary are too strong. Now that I have come to appreciate Kcdad, I probably can’t be budged.
CJ – Thank You.
Sharon, I would repeat the comment today, but I would reword it and make it about me: I think that I have been wasting my time trying to teach students to think when all they want or need to graduate is to memorize. I am trying to make ‘men out of carpenters’ in a system that only wants more carpenters. Sure, I have some success with maybe 10% of my students, but the rest just do whatever little they have to do to “get through” the class. Is this success? Is a 10% success rate really success? Or is it a 90% failure rate? Is this worth the selling out to the system? I don’t know… maybe each new thinking mind is worth a hundred non-thinking minds.
I stated it the way I did originally because I needed to get your attention. It is the perfect example of the Upton Sinclair quote “It is difficult to make a man understand something when his job depends upon him not understanding”.
I think that you, Sharon, have to admit that the school system is a failure for those that need it most. Those that succeed do so DESPITE the schools, rather than because of them. Our home school and private school results prove that, as well as the historical records of our parents and grandparents. (Not to mention GREAT entrepreneurs like Rush Limbaugh, Tom Cruise…heck, look them up yourself…
http://www.angelfire.com/stars4/lists/dropouts.html
Billionaires: 25
Millionaires: uncounted
U.S. Presidents: 8
Astronauts: 1 (Valentina Tereshkova)
Nobel Prize Winners: 10 (6 Literature, 2 Peace, 1 Physics, 1 Chemistry)
Nobel Prize Nominees: 11 (includes above and Heather Mills)
Olympic Medal Winners: 8 (7 Gold Medalists, one Silver Medalist)
Oscar Winners: 62
Oscar Nominees: 104 (includes above)
Other Award Winners: uncounted
Best-Selling Authors: 55
Presidential Medal of Freedom recipients (U.S.’s highest civilian honor): 14
Congressional Gold Medal recipients (U.S.): 12
United Nations Goodwill Ambassadors: 2 (Roger Moore, Angelina Jolie)
Knighthoods: 27
Damehoods: 3
Kcdad: You and the situation always had my attention–I wasn’t naive about the school system’s failures. I understand and believe the schools have taken a wrong turn. However, their failure doesn’t mean that we were failures. Eventually, the “system” might listen when their failure becomes apparent even to their decision-makers. Some of the students do succeed in spite of the system but with the help of teachers. I think I retired just in time–before discouragement took over. Of course, the mark of good teachers is that we never believe we have done enough. The mark we leave/left on students is very hard to measure–but we left marks. I will do everything in my power to see to it that the 7 school-age children in my life have experiences that will supplement what they don’t get in school–that probably has always been the job of parents and others in the lives of children. I really do believe that the church of my youth did help raise me–it was the supplement to school for me.
C.J.-Where do you put comments from kcdad when he goes off topic writing in your kcdadland column?
There is nothing “off topic”… it is all inter-related. You are so used to this sound bite culture of ours where they throw bits and pieces of information at you from all over the place that you aren’t able to put them together and realize their interconnectedness. Life is not extended cable service where you get one story on channel 4 and another on channel 5, 6,7,8,9, etc. There is only one story.
Health Care, the environment, District 150, the museum, curbs and sidewalks, bailing out banks and Wall street, cash for clunkers, the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Bin Laden, The Shah, WWI, WWII, Churchill, Kennedy, Lindbergh, Ford and Hitler… it is all the same story.
“You are so used to this sound bite culture of ours where they throw bits and pieces of information at you from all over the place that you aren’t able to put them together and realize their interconnectedness.”
Paul, I think kcdad is trying to get your attention. (hint, hint) Did you “learn” from the kcdad “lesson”?
I think Jon hasn’t learned anything either. CJ has asked us all to play nice and you seem to want to antagonize kcdad every chance you get.
Play nice!
Jon: We don’t seem to be easily controlled–trying to police whether or not we stay on topic would be a full-time editing job. Obviously, you enjoy the back-and-forth on this new “Kcdad” post or you wouldn’t bother to respond–obviously, he does get your attention. I remember once when I tried to ignore Kcdad–just not respond–thankfully that didn’t work for me. Actually, you seem to enjoy getting your digs in at Kcdad–so enjoy; Kcdad seems able to handle barbs from all sides. The obvious solution would be for all of us to attack and discuss ideas, not individuals. This is C.J.’s blog and I do try to maintain his topic divisions. I write too much and too much on one post (I know my sins–just not repentant enough) so my topics frequently overlap. C.J.’s main interest is the city–which I find understandable. Some of us never tire of 150 issues, so we seem to create a niche for ourselves on posts that aren’t exactly meant for 150 discussions. Sorry, C.J.
Yes, I must admit I felt liberated when CJ said “This is the place for all things KCDad.” If you read my posts carefully again, I think you’ll see that I try very hard to NOT criticize kcdad the person, but rather, his actions and ideas about the way “to get someone’s attention” (nor have I criticized him for being off topic). To me, the idea being discussed is civil discourse, and the examples are kcdad’s actions (as well as my own).
We could go one step farther and discuss the ideas and not how they are presented or by whom. I wonder if I could do that.
kcdad:
“… You are so used to this sound bite culture of ours where they throw bits and pieces of information at you from all over the place that you aren’t able to put them together and realize their interconnectedness. Life is not extended cable service where you get one story on channel 4 and another on channel 5, 6,7,8,9, etc. There is only one story.’
I agree.
**********************
As a culture, I feel that we spend most of our time on what is going wrong vs. what is going right and/or helping things to go right — myself included.
In looking at the Parenting Pyramid ….. from top to bottom ….
Correction
Teaching
Parent/Child Relationship
Husband/Wife Relationship
Personal Way of Being
The solution to the problem in one part of the pyramid lies below that part of the pyramid.
http://www.arbinger.com/downloads/parenting_pyramid.pdf
Jon: In your personal way of being …. do you consider kcdad as
…. a person or
…. an object/obstacle to your way of ‘seeing’ and thinking and ‘being’?
‘Do you appreciate and honor (kcdad/ fill in the blank) as a person — with hopes, dreams, fears, and wants as real as your own?’
In reading your observations about kcdad — we read ‘accusing’ statments or judgements about kcdad.
What do your observations ‘teach’ us about the quality of your heart toward kcdad?
I find that in my life — when my heart is at war — I blame others for not doing what is correct rather than take responsibility for my own actions. When I am at peace — the opposite happens. When I honor what I should do then I live in the real world. When I betray myself and do the opposite of what I know I should do — I start living a lie and live in a virtual reality. I blame others, and justify and rationalize my decision and put the responsibility on others rather than fix my own mote by taking responsibility for my decision to act in a certain manner. The more I blame others — the stronger the reality of my virtual world/reality becomes and the more I live the lie and the more entrenched I become.
Is our community at war or peace? It is not an all or nothing proposition. There is continual change and different levels of peace along the continuum. I do believe that we continue to waste the most precious and underutilized resource in our community — the people and their hearts!
CJ: Thanks for the kcdad repository! 🙂
Karrie: Very well stated. It’s clear that several of us females care about and appreciate Kcdad–maybe that’s the problem. 🙂 Oh, I’m really going to be sorry I said that. I always hope that “sensitivity” isn’t gender-based.
People,
I believe what C.J. meant to do was create a kcdad ‘Suppository!’
Not repository………..
Sorry, but facts is facts.
“YOU are so used to this soundbite culture…YOU aren’t able to put them together…” and Karrie agrees. Who is the YOU? It was directed at Paul, was it not? Maybe kcdad knows Paul really well to say that, and apparently Karrie does too if she agrees with the assessment of what Paul thinks (though I don’t think that is the part she was agreeing with).
My point has nothing to do with our soundbite culture. It is all about the style that seems to imply that one needs to insult another person (or treat them like a child, or tell them what THEY think) first in order to get their attention. Am I doing the very same thing in return to kcdad? Sure, though I don’t think I am nearly as offensive. What has been the result in this short period of time? Well, bam seems to want us all to play nice, Karrie seems to want us to think about the quality of each others’ hearts, Sharon seems to want us to be more sensitive. We’ll see if the actions we all take in our discussions with each other has any effect.
As for your questions about how I see kcdad and the quality of my heart, etc., I guess I can’t answer those as I don’t typically look at it that way, nor do I understand fully what you are asking. I do think that kcdad is an intelligent person who unfortunately acts as a bully, and I think there are different ways to deal with a bully. Maybe it is a male thing, but I prefer to punch this bully back (figuratively, of course).
Jon: It’s all in the eye of the beholder, but I just can’t see Kcdad as a bully. He went after my words on many occasions, and I never saw him as a bully–and I think I do see it as a male macho thing (women fight more insidiously–how’s that for sexism). 🙂 Nobody is willing to accept what I think is Kcdad’s basic challenge to those of us who profess to be followers of Jesus–that he is a communist because he is a follower of Jesus. Maybe I’m incorrectly reading between the lines but I believe Kcdad has had some of the same conflicts that I have had. My religious affiliations have always been with fundamentalists or evangelicals (except for the unfortunate time in my life when I threw the baby (my Biblical faith in Jesus) out with the bath water (the predominate social views of the religious-right with whom I share my own Biblical faith). His challenge has, on many occasions, been my challenge. I have never dared to scare so many of my friends with the word “communism,” but I have come close to using the word “socialism.” For years before I ever heard of Kcdad, I have cringed every time I hear Christians defending capitalism as though it were a God-created economic system, a system that has to be preserved even if its goals don’t always or ever fit with anything they read in the Bible. I haven’t really hated capitalism–perhaps an error on my part. Frankly, I’ve compromised by looking at capitalism as something with which to put up until Christ sets up a kingdom with an economic and social system that man is incapable of imagining.
Wow! I’ve said it. Now I challenge all of you belivers to find all the Bible verses that support capitalism (even when it seems to have created a society of haves and have-nots). What is even more amazing is that I believe capitalism produced social Darwinism–the survival of the fittest–and so very ironic when right-wing Christians fight so hard against Darwin’s theory of evolution. Please take the challenge seriously. Don’t give us opinions–just Bible verses and your interpretation.
kcdad got that mojo:
The Stockholm Syndrome is a psychological shift that occurs in captives when they are shown acts of kindness by their captors. Captives who exhibit the syndrome tend to sympathize with and think highly of their captors, at times believing that the captors are showing them favor stemming from inherent kindness. Such captives fail to recognize that their captors’ choices are essentially self-serving. When subjected to prolonged captivity, these captives can develop a strong bond with their captors, in some cases (especially with a captor of the opposite sex) including a sexual interest.
🙂
Emerge–amazing where we go on this blog. 🙂 If Kcdad’s motives are so perverse, that’s on him. However, I just recognize what I believe might be a definite kindred spirit. Of course, Kcdad, you have revealed only your view of Jesus’ teachings about social issues. We may or may not share like faith about the divinity of Christ–whether yes or not that doesn’t negate my agreement on the social issues. If not, consider yourself my mission field. 🙂
I’ll soon be off to dinner to celebrate a 3-year-old’s birthday and then to bowl–his favorite thing to do. Hope nothing momentous happens while I’m gone.
Okay everyone,
“Capitalism” is not really a system. It is about owning land and the freedom to buy and sell. It limits government power, and gives it to the people. It creates wealth, rather than attempting to redistribute it equally. Fairly simple. A better word is “free enterprise.” It is not perfect, but it is superior to utopias dreamed up by Karl Marx and Adolf Hitler that in practice always ends up crashing from the weight of their arrogance and immorality.
People tend to equate free enterprise with greed, but that’s the result of colossal ignorance on their part. If one has an accurate understanding of free enterprise, it is easy to see Biblical support for it. Freedom comes with responsibility. Self-interest is not the same as selfishness. If you want to understand why the Enron and Bernie Madoff scandals occurred, read the book of Proverbs. It’s obvious that Madoff and Enron officials did not. A communist/socialist system is always rife with scandals, only by government officials, not businessmen.
Communism/Socialism forceably takes from haves and gives to the have nots, thus it blatantly violates the Eighth Commandment, “Thou Shalt Not Steal.”
If you want extensive analysis of Biblical support for free enterprise, go to:
http://www.garynorth.com/public/department57.cfm
give me the verses, David
Sharon, don’t take comments here so personally, no matter the source. I don’t agree with many of your positions, but I can tell from your writings here that you were a true professional and I or my children would have been fortunate to have had you as a teacher.
Jon: Accurate assessment — I was agreeing with kcdad that everything is interconnected. Rather than YOU —- sometimes people are not able to see the interconnectedness. Although sometimes presented or perhaps we may think of our lives as compartmentalized — everything is interconnected.
Style / presentation can be problematic. People generally do not like to pushed on — usual result is that they push back and more resistance is generated and nothing is accomplished or solved.
As for your questions about how I (you Jon in this case) see kcdad and the quality of my heart, etc., I guess I can’t answer those as I don’t typically look at it that way, nor do I understand fully what you are asking.
For me, it is a new way of looking at people, situations and my interactions with them. When I look at a person as a person or look at a person as an object — my heart is at peace in the first scenario or at was in the second scenario. As soon as I start blaming someone else — then I become part of the problem. Golden rule concept — why treat someone disrespectfully or some other negative/angry/mean manner regardless of what how that person is acting toward you? There is the stimulus and then time for you to formulate your response as Victor Frankyl learned in the concentration camp. Each of us is free to choice in each moment of our lives. That means we are responsible for our own actions. For some people that is a new way of thinking.
I provided the link to the Arbinger Institute site. I feel that they can better explain these concepts than myself although I am learning by sharing and discussing these concepts with people that I meet.
I hope that helps and that I am not make the water filled with more mud.
Thanks, David. Your concise comments hit the nail “on the head”. Comments on believing or almost believing like fundamentalists, communists and Socialists made me a bit ill.
Nontime… I take my own beliefs very personally, but I don’t consider disagreement with me to be a personal attack–and I’m taken aback and appreciate your kind words, coming from someone who doesn’t even know me. I am never offended when people don’t agree with me–I’m more apt to be offensive and intense. I always learn more about what I truly believe when people force me to look at a different point of view. I have learned that if I ever get defensive when my views are attacked than I am not very secure in my own skin or sure of what I thought were my convictions. The only problem at age 71 is that I have probably done all the questioning of my own beliefs that I am going to do–but I still find it worthwhile to find out how others think.
David, I read your post too quickly–I will be interested in reading from your link–I know that Christian support of free enterprise is too strong for someone not to have come up with Biblical verification. Strangely enough, even from the most conservative of pulpits I have never heard a sermon in defense of free enterprise. Also, I really do have a fear of starting this kind of conversation because I know it can be so offensive to many–and I’m really not in the mood to offend. I am, however, very sincerely interested in trying to come to grips with what the Scripture really says. One thing I know for sure is that even if I could prove that there is a “Christian” socialism or communism, or capitalism I do not believe that this country or any country should be considered a “Christian” country and believe that nobody who chooses not to be Christian should be forced to follow precepts. I truly believe in maintaining this country as one with freedom of religion for all.
David, I have taken a brief look at your David North link. I am going to find it interesting and I am not going to be surprised that the Old Testament seems to condone great wealth–I already know that. However, there are many O.T. passages in which God definitely demands that the rich help the poor, etc.–I believe it is those verses that are more often overlooked. No where in the Bible do I expect to find any proof that God expects any government to adhere to a fair economic system–I think he did set up some rules for how Israel was to treat the poor. I don’t believe that America is a nation established by God–maybe sometimes blessed by God, quite certainly if blessed, then blessed to be a blessing just as Israel was–and probably has failed, just as Israel failed. I believe all the support I will find for my view point will concern individuals and his people (Israel in the O.T. and the church in the New Testament). I don’t believe he set up any rules for governments to follow, but I don’t think he would be angry if some government actually did it His way. My only reason for taking up this discussion is to try understand why Christians would object–on Biblical grounds–if the government they so often want to consider as a Christian government (even though I don’t think it is or even should be)–to providing the least among us with health care. I believe the church and individuals are commanded to care for the poor (regardless of whether or not we deem them worthy). Governments do not have that obligation, but I believe Christians, living in a democratic country such as ours, have the right to criticize a government for not caring for its people. Belief in pulling oneself up by one’s bootstraps is about the most unBiblical stance I could possibly imagine. At no time in the Bible, does God ever let anyone think that he is self-sufficient.
David: I will get back to tomorrow when I have more time to read you r post… however your definition of capitalism is WAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYY off. Ask any economics professor. It is the ownership of the means of production and the exploitation of natural resources that are “owned” as well. Capitalism is synonymous with greed, and self interest. Ask Ayn Rand.