Here it is, folks: This is the place for all things KCDad. Here you can discuss communism, KCDad-style. Or you can discuss the teachings of Jesus as interpreted by KCDad. Perhaps you want to just sit and soak in the profound teaching of KCDad himself. This is the place. Now is the time.
But from now on, if the conversation on any other post strays away from the post’s original topic into KCDad-Land (which will be determined at my sole discretion), the comments will be moved to this post for that discussion to continue (hence the “repository” moniker). I’ll leave a little note in the comments section of future posts if the discussion is redirected here.
That doesn’t mean that all of KCDad’s comments (or responses to KCDad’s comments) will be moved here. He isn’t being quarantined. This is simply an attempt to keep posts on topic. As long as the comments are related to the original topic, they’re fine. It’s only when they veer into the “communism vs. capitalism” or “The Gospel According to KCDad” or similarly-recurring motifs that they’ll be moved to this thread for further argument and development.
Ayn Rand would not agree with most of anything that you spout on this site.
Whats wrong with self interest Kcdad?
Main Entry: cap·i·tal·ism
Pronunciation: \?ka-p?-t?-?liz-?m, ?kap-t?-, British also k?-?pi-t?-\
Function: noun
Date: 1877
: an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market
Main Entry: com·mu·nism
Pronunciation: \?käm-y?-?ni-z?m, -yü-\
Function: noun
Etymology: French communisme, from commun common
Date: 1840
1 a : a theory advocating elimination of private property b : a system in which goods are owned in common and are available to all as needed
2 capitalized a : a doctrine based on revolutionary Marxian socialism and Marxism-Leninism that was the official ideology of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics b : a totalitarian system of government in which a single authoritarian party controls state-owned means of production c : a final stage of society in Marxist theory in which the state has withered away and economic goods are distributed equitably d : communist systems collectively
I just thought I would post both so that everyone knows exactly whats being addressed without the Kcdad spin.
And no one would accuse Ayn Rand of being a Christian either. Aren’t her views the epitome of capitalism? I believe Kcdad is saying that Rand advocates capitalism because she advocates greed and self-interest.
Right he would believe that she does advocate greed and self interest just like she would advocate that he spreads laziness and social disorder.
This is a bit of Rand from online, “Charity is rational, objective, and genuine when, rather than being offered indiscriminately, it is offered only to those who deserve it. Generosity toward those who are innocent victims of injustice or who are fighting against adversity is proper. It is wrong to help persons with no virtue. By giving unconditionally you deceive the recipient into thinking that wealth and happiness are free.” I see nothing Biblical in this quote. God’s grace is free–that’s what makes grace so difficult for Pharisees to swallow.
Right and I am not religious nor do I care about God. I never attempted to argue Ayn Rand was at all in step with Christian thought. If you look at my arguements they fall in step with much of what Ayn Rand has to say.
Your right God’s grace is free but health care, housing, food all the things needed to keep people alive are not. What do we do with everyone who does not produce once we have created our communist utopia? What prevents members of that society from just collecting but never putting in? What are the consequences from choosing not to engage as a functional member of a communist society?
In other words how long does someone eat if they dont work?
Unlike Kcdad probably, I am not really advocating a communistic government–I am just saying that God does expect his people to be generous (I’ll even concede not through the government) and would never advocate withholding help because a “Christian” deems someone else unworthy of help. I’m just talking to Christians who believe that God gives them permission to be selfish. I just don’t think Christians have a leg to stand on when they advocate against national health care–others, like you, Stephen, have a right to oppose such generosity. You aren’t professing to live your life as a Christian–you’re under no obligation. I’m just stating a fact, not a judgment.
8nor did we eat anyone’s food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you. 9We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to make ourselves a model for you to follow. 10For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: “If a man will not work, he shall not eat.”
2Th 3
So in a communist society goods are available to all as needed. So if I need food is it made available to me whether I work or not? I think that is a good verse to start on Sharon
Stephen, isn’t this verse about a Christianity community of a group of people who have agreed to work to help each other–that everyone has to pull his own weight, so to speak. And you’ve picked another good passage for this discussion. So many people see the Bible as contradictory; I believe, on the contrary, it is full of paradoxes, not contradictions. Here I find the two sides of the coin we are discussing. There are plenty of verses to prove the point that Christians are expected to help the poor without judgment of how deserving the persons are. However, on the other side of the coin, no one is given permission to take advantage of the generosity of others and to expect to do nothing in return. The basic premise here though is that God, not us, gets to judge the motivations of both the giver and the receiver. However, as far as government is concerned, I believe that where welfare, etc., is concerned there should be some rules to safeguard against abuse so that the people who need help get it. I have no problem with holding people responsible when it’s within their power to be responsible. Health insurance–the topic at hand–doesn’t seem to me to fit that kind of responsibility. Many people are responsible in that they have a job and work–but their employer just doesn’t offer health care. The workers’ willingness to be responsible has nothing whatsoever to do with it.
Wouldn’t an easier solution be this:
If you don’t agree with KCdad or if you don’t like him for whatever reason, scroll down past his comments and don’t read them.
Look at verse 11, Stephen. I think this is the key to understanding this passage.
“11for we hear of certain walking among you disorderly, nothing working, but over working, ” (“over working” is almost always translated as “busybodies”)
Paul has said that “that if any one is not willing to work”… not willing…. not: not able.
Remember communism is based on the idea of community; Gemeinschaft (Fredrich Tonnies). Mechanical Solidarity (Emile Durkheim).
You think that the poor that are sometimes working three jobs just to get by
( http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/bushlivingthesimplelife ) are unworthy of the same services children of the “fabulously wealthy” take for granted?
Ok Kcdad Im done trying to argue with you answer this logically:
We have a communist utopia (hypothetical situation.) I as a member of that society decide that I can do half the labor as the person next to me and still collect the same portion of livable goods. Why would I work as hard or strain myself when I can work half as hard and just let someone else pick up the slack or even better I decide as a member of that society that I no longer want to work. I still need food, housing all the things to survive but I feel that I would rather not work or contribute to the common good. What do we do then? What happens if large numbers of society decide they dont want to work?
I don’t know… why would you do half the work your wife or friends do around the house or any where else?
Why would exploit (take advantage of) other people’s labor for your own self interests?
The answer is very simple… all you have to do is decide whether or not you are more important than the people you have decided to take advantage of… your family, your friends, your neighbors, your community.
Why wouldn’t you want to take advantage of them?
Kcdad thats not an answer. There are people right now who choose to take advantage of their friends, their family and their community. I am simply asking what is the answer that communism offers if portions of society choose not to work.
Do the people not working still draw all the same benifits from society even though they are choosing not to put the same amount in?
Stephen: How would one quantify what would be the same amount for each person for each task? There is room in society for people to do their best —- if they choose to do their best. Their best would likely increase over their lifetime as they have time to practice their talents. I agree with you that under communism, at least at my current level of understanding, there would be slackers (those who chose not to work at all or to not do their best) would not work and would be on the dole and there would be no way to so called — make them work. {And there are times when we are all slackers (imo).}
Stephen, I think that you might find that this article
(http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.php?id=6162)
speaks to the questions you poised. Again, under communism, there is no consequence for not working. If there is a consequence then please tell me what it would be. Insight into another form of property ownership, the law of consecrecration or the united order. Communism and socialism are counterfeits or fraudulent systems which take away our liberty and wreck havoc on the souls of the people of the world and thereby destroy our society.
I would be interested to know what your opinions about the content of this article.
I would disagree with kcdad that Jesus Christ supports and/or embraces communism.
Karrie: I agree for the most part about capital C communism; however, I believe that lower-case communism run by Jesus might well be the sort of kingdom I would expect Jesus to establish. I just don’t think we have any point of reference to imagine such a system. Does anybody believe that competition for wealth would be a plan God would follow in his choice of kingdoms? He alone would be the giver; he would give freely; and he probably will ask only obedience in return.
Sharon,
Free enterprise isn’t about competition for wealth, it is about the creation of wealth. And it works.
Check the link below and put (for example) 1950 as the initial year and 2008 as the ending year, and you’ll see growth in annual GDP and per capita income.
http://www.measuringworth.org/usgdp/
“Free enterprise isn’t about competition for wealth, it is about the creation of wealth.”??
How is the kool-aid?
Did the industrialists of the late 1800s “create” wealth or did they steal it from the ground with cheap exploited and dehumanized labor?
Do banks (in our case, the Fed) create money? Or do they just print it and say it worth so much?
Did feudal lords create wealth or did they gobble up huge tracts of land and force farmers into serfdom and then exploit their production to line their own products?
Don’t you realize (in your rants against government and praise of free enterprise) that capitalize would not be possible without government allowing it and condoning it? Why do you think corporations pay less than a 1/3 of what individuals pay in taxes to the government? Why do you think corporations are allowed tax breaks and incentives to pass on their costs to employees and customers? (e.g. social security, unemployment, payroll taxes…) Corporations can write off all these as costs of business but you can not write off your food, clothing, etc as cost of being available to be a worker…
Capitalism exists because the government allows it and supports it and props it up to keep it from failing…. duh… what happened 1 year ago with the investment (the heart of capitalism,) and banking industries???? What happened to Chrysler 30 years ago? What about the tobacco industry, the drug and chemical industries, the petroleum industry, agriculture, entertainment and the arts… none of these would exist in a capitalist society without government intervention.
I hope the kool aid is sugar free at least… and not with aspartame.
David: I’m not a student of economics–I’ll take your word for it. I guess I’m just speaking about what I see as the result of the creation of that wealth–some extreme greed (Madhoff) but, also, some extreme unselfish giving. Maybe that’s not a bad tradeoff. I definitely have come to the conclusion that arguing against capitalism is counterproductive–it’s our system; I can live with it–and do quite well. As I’ve said before, I am just confused sometimes by Christians who sometimes seem to view capitalism as a “Christian” system and defend it as stenuously as they would the gospel–I can’t see that–only that it may be used effectively by Christians to do the work of the church. Also, I don’t mind if a little socialism creeps in now and then. We can probably find more productive things to discuss–but I’ll probably keep getting sucked into the discussion if it goes on.
And then Kcdad adds thoughts (above mine) that make sense to me, also. I think we all have a bit of the truth–gradually we may see the whole picture. Surely no one can deny that this country was built on the backs of the poor by the industrialsts of the 1800s and on the backs of slaves for almost the same period of time. The capitalism we have today has been “cleaned up a bit” by some human rights legislation–and unions–it might look “clean” to us if we forget to look back on some very unfortunate pieces of our history that really created the world in which we live.
If only there were some historian of some repute that could enlighten us on this part of our history…. someone who regularly reads this blog…
“I would be interested to know what your opinions about the content of this article.”
I know you didn’t ask for mine, but has anyone ever wondered why so many communists are Jewish? Perhaps it is because the entire Old Testament Law is based on communal ownership and sharing of the proceeds of production…
That The Latter Day Saints would say it is antithetical to The Bible is either a misunderstanding or ignorance of the Old Testament.
USURY!!!
You all stand condemned.
How do you plead?
New voice: Sarcasm or truth–can’t read between the lines. Yes, I’m about ready to do what I’ve been planning to do for a couple of years–a study of the Old Testament references to how Israel was told to treat the poor, etc. Kcdad, good observation about the communes in Israel. I think some of you would be surprised–if you are not really acquainted with the Old Testament. I love the O.T.–it is so misunderstood by so many. Right now in my Sunday School class we are studying the book of Exodus–it will take us months (maybe a year). One little fact that I found revealing. Did you know that the King James Version of the Bible only mentions the word “slave” a few times (and not in reference to people serving others as slaves) compared to more modern translations (NIV)? Remember King James I himself and his predecessor Elizabeth I brought slaves to America–is it any wonder that all the references to slaves in the Bible would have been offensive to James and the “Christian” slave owners of the the Colonies? Imagine changing words in the Bible so as to alleviate guilt.
kcdad,
Until you have an accurate understanding of free enterprise, you will not get it, and trying to explain it to you will be moot. But for the benefit of others who may, unfortunately, accept false premises regarding free enterprise, I will respond as best I can.
Did the industrialists of the late 1800s “create” wealth or did they steal it from the ground with cheap exploited and dehumanized labor?
Did government or the people solve this problem? The First Amendment to the Constitution guarantees freedom of speech and the right to peaceful assembly, which allows for trade unions. Workers fought for safe working conditions and higher wages. Fortunately, the fact that during the late 19th Century the United States began producing more goods than its own population could support began our status as a major exporter. Demand for our products drove up wages because businesses needed workers.
Do banks (in our case, the Fed) create money? Or do they just print it and say it worth so much?
There was $829 billion in circulation at the start of 2008, but GDP that year totaled nearly $14.5 trillion. Why is that? Because each dollar is spent multiple times. It’s called a “dynamic economy.” Economies have velocity, which varies depending on a boom or bust cycle.
Did feudal lords create wealth or did they gobble up huge tracts of land and force farmers into serfdom and then exploit their production to line their own products?
And this has to do with America how?
Don’t you realize (in your rants against government and praise of free enterprise) that capitalize would not be possible without government allowing it and condoning it? Why do you think corporations pay less than a 1/3 of what individuals pay in taxes to the government? Why do you think corporations are allowed tax breaks and incentives to pass on their costs to employees and customers? (e.g. social security, unemployment, payroll taxes…) Corporations can write off all these as costs of business but you can not write off your food, clothing, etc as cost of being available to be a worker…
The U. S. Constitution, not the government, allows free enterprise. You failed to cite any source for your assertion about the tax rate corporations pay, but assuming it’s true, so what? If they paid more in taxes, the cost would be passed on to consumers. And who do you think would be most negatively affected? The poor. Futhermore, if the tax rate were increased, jobs would be lost and more manufacturing would move offshore. Tax breaks soften the blow of increased taxes and costly regulations imposed on corporations during the past century. I’d prefer reduced tax rates, but tax breaks allow corporations to keep more of their own money. It’s better than none at all.
Capitalism exists because the government allows it and supports it and props it up to keep it from failing…. duh… what happened 1 year ago with the investment (the heart of capitalism,) and banking industries???? What happened to Chrysler 30 years ago? What about the tobacco industry, the drug and chemical industries, the petroleum industry, agriculture, entertainment and the arts… none of these would exist in a capitalist society without government intervention.
To correct you once more, the U. S. Constitution, not the government, allows free enterprise. But in reply to your ramblings, the recent lending crisis was caused by the failure of some to live within their means. That’s an issue of personal responsibility. Federal mandates, not free enterprise, created this mess. The 1979 Chrysler bailout was not “free enterprise.” In a free enterprise system, Chrysler would have been allowed to fail, reorganize, or have its assets purchased by a competitor, or a new corporation. Your last assertion is completely false. Fact is, these industries exist in spite of government intervention.
Divinity of Jesus… oh boy. No more or less divine than you, Gandhi, Thos Jefferson, Adolf Hitler or me.
The word divine means either from God or God. “From God”, yes Jesus was from God… but so are we. Was God? I don’t think there is any evidence of that. Jesus didn’t DO anything that his disciples couldn’t or didn’t do, he didn’t say anything that hadn’t been said in other cultures or times, and he didn’t do anything that any human being hasn’t or won’t at some time do: Born, live (eat, sleep, drink, talk, think, choose, love, laugh, weep, be tempted, worry, fear,) and die. I don’t believe in a literal resurrection, that is, a raising of a physical body from the dead. (If a physical raising, where is the body now?) I believe in a resurrection in the original meaning of that word… a lifting up, in the same way we lift up or resurrect Abraham Lincoln every February. He becomes alive and real to us again when we remember and celebrate.
There is an absence of the resurrection story, for example, in the original Gospel according to Mark, AND the other accounts disagree on almost every point. The prophesies do not match their fulfillment and even the language of the story changes from Hebrew imagery to Greek imagery in the resurrection story… (for example, Jesus rose on the morning of first day of the week: that would be both our and the Jewish Sunday morning. BUT, he visits the disciples and has the doubting Thomas encounter on the evening of the first day of the week which is Sunday evening in Greek and Roman thinking but is SATURDAY evening in Jewish tradition. He couldn’t have possibly visiting the disciples BEFORE he rose… not to mention how many times did Mary and Peter go to tomb, who got their first, what did they find there, how many and what were the “beings” they saw in the tomb?)
My last point is of course, if God, then his “death” is a fraud and his sacrifice shallow and meaningless.
So, to answer your question, Jesus is, or was as divine as anyone, and is as eternal as anyone. I think the difference between Jesus and you or me is a quantitative difference, not a qualitative one.
“Did government or the people solve this problem?” Government; 1890- Sherman anti-trust and National Labor Relations Act in 1935. Oh, did you answer the question? No.
“There was $829 billion in circulation at the start of 2008, but GDP totaled nearly $14.4 trillion.” Did you answer this question… no.
So what you are saying is that GDP is measure of the fluidity of the money (how fast it moves through the economy), not the actual amount of value in the economy. In this case, the GDP overstates the worth of an economy by 15 times.
“And this has to do with America how?” Capitalism is feudalism on steroids. Did you answer this question… no.
“And who do you think would be most negatively affected? The poor.” The poor pay no taxes. REMEMBER?
“The U. S. Constitution, not the government, allows free enterprise.” Where? Which amendment or article is that found in? Who is responsible for interstate commerce? Who is responsible for monetary policy, and taxes, trade and tariffs?
We live in a truly fascist state where corporations, specifically banks, investment and other financial firms control policy.
Who answered one out of 4 questions… even were I to give you credit for trying, you still only get 25… you failed.
David P Jordan,
Are you trying to explain what Capitalism/Free Enterprise IS, or what is WRONG with it?
Honestly, I see very little ‘free enterprise’ here. Corporitism, maybe, but free enterprise…?
Also, your assertion that the U.S. Constitution and government are two separate entities…? Maybe in a [very] perfect world, but………….. we all know the Consitution IS what the government says it is.
Sharon,
“New voice: Sarcasm or truth–can’t read between the lines.”
Both.
Will get into as we proceed………………………..
Kcdad: I don’t require that my friends believe in the divinity of Christ–it just is a doctrine–core to my faith and life–that I have no intention of arguing (I did that in my youth maybe even with myself). He is who He is to me. I know all the arguments pro and con. I was hoping that we shared like faith (that’s always an added dimension to friendship for me, but not necessary)–as we do a deonomination. I think you know the Scriptures well enough–who knows what might happen if you keep reading them. Personally, I don’t believe any humanbeing’s arguments ever have that much effect on this particular issue of faith–I have no intention of offending you by engaging in that argument. Love you!
kcdad,
I answered your questions, but obviously not to your liking. The Sherman Anti-Trust Act and National Labor Relations Act came out of Congress, which is made up of elected representatives of the people. Government, yes, but nothing to do with communism.
New Voice,
I’m trying to correct kcdad’s false assumptions about free enterprise. The Constitution determines the Federal government’s structure, its powers and limitations. It is above the Federal government.
kcdad,
Watch or listen to the five sermons at this link:
http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/ConferenceMessages/ByConference/36/
After you do, you won’t come back believing Jesus is, “no more or less divine than…Adolf Hitler.” Seriously.
I understand what you are doing. You are both making valid points here, but when you make statements like, ” The Constitution determines the Federal government’s structure, its powers and limitations. It is above the Federal government,” don’t you think you are being a little naive?
Sure, kcdad sounds like the greatest of all conspiracy theorists, but you are beginning to read like a textbook.
It is possible that taxing corporations might result in higher consumer prices being passed on to the “poor,” but we have higher consumer prices now anyway AND people are losing their jobs, not to mention the fact that major corps have been moving off-shore for decades. Companies are loosing money and/or closing down for good. Prices are sky-rocketing and unemployment is reaching new heights. We blame this all on “the failure of some to live within their means?” That is a bit of a reach…
Is all of this in the Constitution or is this just crappy government? Corporate greed maybe?
I am still waiting for my answer Kcdad?
In your communist utopia what happens if I decide that I, or large portions of the population, no longer want to work? Is it up to the rest of society to support me or is there a different alternative?
New Voice: I understand now.
Stephen,
I will speak for kcdad……………….
There is no such thing as a utopia of any kind. A communist utopia would be the same thing as a ‘perfect’ communist state. Even kcdad knows this is not possible.
If you and a large group of your friends are willing to stop working, I would be more than willing to tag along and take notes. Sounds like a wonderful experiment. I am glad you are so eager to volunteer!
Of course, someone like Paris Hilton does not work and she seems to be doing just fine. Maybe I should re-think this………………………..Uhmmmmm…..
Sharon,
Sweet.
New Voice,
Yes, companies have moved production offshore for a long time. That was the consequence of government policy. By the time European and Japanese industry recovered, inflationary spending, along with Nixon- and Carter-era price controls began to take their toll on American industry. In order to stay in business, production moved to Mexico, and more recently, China.
Unfortunately, politicians never learn. If “Cap and Trade” becomes law, it will probably end steel production in America (goodbye Keystone Steel & Wire), and the airline industry will have to severely curtail operations as the cost of doing business rises.
Years from now, some will still claim it was the result of “corporate greed.”
NV that wasnt the question.
Sorry I need to change my wording.
Hypothetically if we were living in a society that functioned under a communist system what would happen if I choose not to continue working keeping in mind that in the definition of communism it is stated that “goods are owned in common and are available to all as needed.”
I know that if I stopped working tommorow there would be consequences being that we do not live in a communist society.
We all know that America isn’t going to choose to be a communist nation. Maybe we should forget about the downside of a communist utopia–to use that as an excuse for extolling the virtures of capitalism, etc. As individuals and as a country, we always comfort ourselves by comparing ourselves to those who make us look good. Isn’t this the same argument I use constantly with District 150. If we take a close look at problems and inequities, etc., maybe we could make ourselves better–avoiding constructive criticisms does not bring about change for the better. Forget Kcdad’s offer of communism as a solution and just take a good look of the faults he finds with this country. It never does any harm to look in the mirror–oh, maybe I don’t want to go that far. 🙂
David P.,
I see your point. However, many people [wrong or right] consider Corporate America and Big Government to be one and the same…………….
Stephen,
I know what you are saying.
Sharon,
Look in the mirror?!?!
Ouch!
STEPHEN: Your question about a communist utopia has no single answer, just as it wold have no single answer in this economy. If you quit working tomorrow here in Peoria… can you tell me for sure what would happen? The question is WHY would you? How society respond to your decision is all based on WHY, not the fact that you aren’t working. There are plenty of people in every society that do not do any work for various reasons…
David: David Wells… argument from popularity? Can you not think of any other reason why Christianity is expanding in China, Africa and India? Why is it dying in the west? What is the difference between Christianity in poorer undeveloped countries and developed western countries??? It was 40 years ago that Lenny Bruce observed that every day people are deserting the church and finding God. To try and argue that the reason Christianity is so huge is because of Jesus ignores the FACT that Islam is growing faster than Christianity and within 5 or 10 will be larger than Christianity. When that happens, what will the argument be? (You also have to realize the numbers included vast differences in beliefs among Christian denominations, sects and cults that disingenuously pretend some sense of unity in Christ… There is no single “christianity” and therefor no single christ. ) Then there is the argument about Islam requires one read the scriptures in Arabic (he doesn’t state that Jews also learn Hebrew to read their HOLY scriptures) but in fact suggests the fact we read translations (of translations of translations) is a GOOD thing.
In the following pastors panel discussion this phrase was spoken in all sincerity…
“All authority in the universe belongs to Jesus Christ…
If you don’t bow the knee to him you will perish. We need to proclaim that God is angry at the whole world, if you don’t obey the son the wrath of god rests on you.”
“…there was sense there was a mealy mouthed hesitancy to talk about the most important things in the world, namely, getting right with a holy god who will crush you forever if you don’t go to the son he provided…” …who is ” spectacularly supreme, beautiful and glorious, tender, tough, worthy, attractive, and satisfying; why wouldn’t you want to give your life to this?”
Are you kidding me? You believe this. I understand. People can and do believe anything. Is this reasonable? A creator who hates his creation and intends on CRUSHING IT because of his WRATH, demanding you bow to his son or PERISH.
A son who is his own words and those of his biographers NOT described as attractive, worthy, tough, tender, glorious, beautiful and supreme. But instead is described in TOTALLY human terms… tempted, doubting, fearful, sad, angry, frustrated, suspicious, loving, generous and selfless.
OK, on to presentation 3: (while it is loading, does it bother you that Piper has been the pastor of the same church for 30 years and a series of down loadable photos of himself on the homepage?Rather cultish, don’t you think?)
Voddie Baucham: (praying) “We need a word from you, god…” and I’m gonna deliver it.
“if there is an issue between Christ and post modernity, guess who wins?” This is a false dichotomy, and an easy straw man to knock down. He had just equated “truth” with Christ and snidely suggested that post modernity has issues with the idea of “truth”. So, with that in mind, let’s edit his statement to be truer to his premises: “If there is an issue between Christ and truth, guess who wins?” Well if that isn’t a horse of a different color!
Instead of his dubious interpretation of the title of this lecture The Supremacy of Christ and Truth in a Post Modern World… He is suggesting the title is The Supremacy of Christ and Truth / in a Post Modern World. YET he is arguing about Christ / and (the idea of) Truth in a Post Modern World. If you don’t get the distinction, you will swallow anything this guys feeds you.
Christ is supreme over Truth!
2 competing world views: Christian theism and Secular humanism… another false dichotomy…
Life’s ultimate questions:
1) God… necessary, intelligent, sovereign, all powerful, being vs atheism (there is no God) man is the starting point in S.H…. as well as in Christianity, apparently… Jesus- salvation only happens when God becomes man. Without Jesus as a man, there is no Christianity.
2) Man… Special creation, made in the very image of God, vs evolutionary accident
3) Truth… absolute vs relative to the natural world.
4) Knowledge… limited to natural world… duh.
5) Ethics… absolute vs cultural, negotiable
ok, I’m about done with this guy… here is some of his errors
1) God supposedly created a universe that is falling apart according to specific observable laws of nature. He created a “perfect” image of himself in man, who immediately failed to be what he was created to be. Evil some how sprung from man (or from another creation of God, his angels), not from God.
2) What is the image of God… man? Isn’t that rather ego centric? Do you think dolphins and apes think God looks like them? What about flies (that have been around millions of years longer than us? Are they in the image of God, too?)
3) The world circles the sun, the POPE said so, and if you disagree with this truth you will be executed. The truth NEVER changes. The Old testament calls bats birds and rabbits cud chewers… it was the truth then… is it now?
4) How can you KNOW anything that you can’t conceive or perceive? How can you perceive or conceive of anything that isn’t based on natural laws? He is confusing belief with knowledge.
5) Slavery, eating pork, menstruation, Sabbath laws, gleaning food from other people’s fields, leprosy, creating images of people, animals or god… unethical and sinful or based on cultural traditions? Is murder a sin or only if they are unbelievers? What was the whole Jewish thing calling non-jews swine and dogs?
The next guy, Tim Keller is talking about Mark 9. The casting out of a demon that requires prayer because this demon is “in too deep”. What kind of absolute truth and knowledge is that? A demon? Who created that demon? Who allows that demon to run wild and free? Why aren’t we seeing a bunch demons these days? Did Jesus get rid of all of them?
Tim Keller, cont.: Evangelizing ex-christians???? Now there is an exercise in futility. What happened to once saved always saved? What happened to the power of the Holy Spirit? You gotta realize something is wrong with the message when the power of (All Mighty) God can not keep people in the pews.
AND he quoting a guy who is talking about society in the 1950s!!!! 50 years later and God still hasn’t answered their prayers… The church is, in fact, in WORSE shape than in 1960 or 1970 or 1980 or 1990 or 2000… but Islam, on the other hand is growing, Buddhism is growing, Secular humanism is growing, and Atheism is growing… survival of the fittest?
Kcdad is right–Christianity has always appealed more to the poor than to the rich– the poorer countries are the mission field today, as always. Kcdad, you know I’m not going to get into this discussion with you–about the lordship of Christ and the wrath of God, etc. You even know about the Calvinist doctrine of “once saved always saved.” That gave me some trouble when I left my own faith for a few years. But then I figured it out–God didn’t leave me. I really, really don’t want to get into the “Let’s save Kcdad” mode–because I know I can’t do it–so I’ll leave it to the one who can. I’d love to share like faith with you, but until then I still find exchanging ideas with you is helpful to me.
Kcdad: I’m not big on TV preachers–I’ve been turned off by way too many. I will ask this one question–and I think I’ve asked it before. Have you ever read C. S. Lewis’ “Mere Christiainity,” or any other of Lewis’ books. His explanation of Christianity–and all the issues that you discussed above–just works for me. Also, there is just as much of the love of God in the Old Testament as there is in Jesus’ teachings. But, no doubt, the wrath is there, too–but I will never buy that God hates his creation–not you or me–or anyone else. Please tell me to stop when I get preachy–when haven’t I been preachy on any subject?
Yes I have read CS Lewis… Screwtape Letters, Mere Christianity, and I think I once read a part of The Great Divorce. Couldn’t stand The Chronicles Of Narnia. I have a problem with one his most basic ideas: universal morality. I don’t observe this universal morality in practice around the world or throughout time. All morality is culturally derived and learned. That is why cultures are so diverse.
Have you read William Hart’s book: Evil, A Primer… A History of A Bad Idea From Beelzebub to Bib Laden?
He addresses the question of God and evil… how can they both exist?
I don’t need to be saved from anything except a society that is so totally self absorbed, greedy, unequal, unjust and dishonest. We all need to be saved from that.