121 thoughts on “Thoughts on health care”

1. “Wait a minute — you own nothing, kcdad?”

   Legally? Yeah, I suppose I do. What would you like, C.J. Whatever I have and you need is yours to have…. I don’t think of it as ownership, because as soon as you begin to think in those terms you don’t own it anymore, it owns you. I possess my computer, my clothes, my house, my car… if you need them come take ’em. I can’t give you my cat and dog, because they are living beings and may choose freely to go with, but I can’t give them to you.

   “Don Malesku” The rest of you can see how defensive we get when someone challenges our deeply held religious beliefs. Don’s happen to be about possessions and ownership.

   “No one buys that bullshit story you just wrote. LOL!!! latvian or estonian kid selling encyclopedias?!! Oh that is too stupid to be true. It sounds like something some hippie-shit writer wrote in the 70’s before you decided to plagarize it and make it your own.”
   Did anyone “buy that bullshit story”? Why is it so hard to accept?
   … why the anger… wow.

   Stephen: “If a fire burned everything I own tommorow I could easily survive without government handouts”
   Yes, great… but could you survive without grocery stores and someone providing power to your home, someone providing gas for your car? Could you protect what you “own” without government protection? You are not as independent as you think you are… you just have more money and therefor more options in THIS economy than some other people.

2. Stephen: “Ok Kcdad I am not questioning your communist ideas Im just stating that the government should in no way attempt to enforce them.”
   There is no need for a titular government in communism… you are thinking about Socialism.

3. Kcdad I am stating a fact that if tommorow everything I OWN, yes I used the word own, was destroyed I could survive without government health care, housing, food stamps. I never attempted to argue that I can survive without fuel, grocery stores or power.

   I know alot of people on this blog site are duped into thinking that you are some guru of insight but its not the case. You merely pick at points but never really prove your own. Communism will never work because human nature is self interest. I will always do whats best for myself before I do what is best for others. I suggest you relocate to a religous commune so that you and like minded people can live in a controled environment where communism works.

   And my statement was correct your ideas are examples of communism and you would like to see the government put them into action. Whether we would be living in a socialist government was not the statement.

4. “Let me tell you a good kcdad story. A college kid came around early this summer selling magazines or encyclopedias… you know the pitch. He happened to be from Latvia or Estonia and this was his first time in the US.” For those of you that think Kcdad made this story up, I now recall that this young man may very well have stopped at my house–I live a block or so away from Kcdad. The young man seemed quite sincere to me. I visited with him a bit, but didn’t buy the magazines or encyclopedias or offer to give him anything.

5. “Communism will never work because human nature is self interest.” That isn’t true at all. Human nature is survival of the species, not the individual. If you want to know the best of what you called human nature, look to those martyrs and heroes who gave up their lives for others. (Oh so very well to talk about and build monuments to, but not for me! “me gimme mine now” THAT’S the result of Americanism. I highly recommend Century of the Self, a 5 hour long documentary about this American concept of the “self” and how recent it really is. http://freedocumentaries.org/index.php)

   Thanks Sharon… and it was education books, the kind a parent wishing to home school their kids might use. But i just made up the story and mass hypnotized you into believing you experienced the same thing. (You must have done a lot of acid too.)

   “And my statement was correct your ideas are examples of communism and you would like to see the government put them into action.”
   I don’t think the government can or would put them into action… it would self defeating for government to do that. I would like to see PEOPLE put them in action despite the government… whatever form it takes.

   Yes communism… communism… say it a few times and read about it… it isn’t half as scary (and deadly) as capitalism has turned out to be.

6. I have read about it and at one point in my life I would have been on your side but I had a change of heart and mind.

   The reason they are considered hereos is that they did something that was an exception not the rule. They are remembered for doing something other then what the normal person would have done. In other words instead of doing what is rational which would have been to survive they chose to do something not in their own self interest which was to die. Thats why we recognize them as exceptional humans. You proved my point quite nicely there. At a base level humans are animals and the primary concern for animals is survival. Self interest.

   Capitalism and communism stand at opposite poles. Their essential difference is this: The communist, seeing the rich man and his fine home, says: ‘No man should have so much.’ The capitalist, seeing the same thing, says: ‘All men should have as much.’ “

7. Let me paraphrase…

   I got it, I deserve it. You don’t, so you don’t.
   Do you really think there is enough wealth that everyone could be a billionaire? Can everyone be CEO or President? Can everyone be rich? If that were possible, don’t you think it would be in this country? And yet, people starve, live in trailers with no heater, or homes with no power. People have no health care, no possibility for a job that pays a living wage, and some don’t even that much…. IN THIS COUNTRY!!!!

   Exceptional human beings put others before themselves… are you sure, according to your idea of human nature, that they aren’t insane?

   I suggest that the reason we consider them exceptional is because that is what we all wish we had the courage to do… but we don’t because we don’t believe the nonsense about heaven and eternal life that we profess. Whereas they, whatever their motivations, did what they thought was best for the world and for their species, notwithstanding what it cost them.

   As Paul the “apostle”, so appropriately put it, to die is gain…
   Philippians 1:21-23
   21for to me to live [is] Christ, and to die gain.

   22And if to live in the flesh [is] to me a fruit of work, then what shall I choose? I know not;

   23for I am pressed by the two, having the desire to depart, and to be with Christ, for it is far better,

8. Let me paraphrase….

   I have worked very hard for the few things that I own and I do believe that I deserve them more then someone who has not.

   Did I ever claim there there was enough money for everyone to be a billionaire or that it was my goal or everyones goal to become one? It dosnt bother me that I will never be a CEO or make my first million.

   I know what its like to live in poverty and I know what its like to work out of it so I completely understand not having food, money, heat and no health insurance. Do you?

   You referenced people who not only put themselves before others but actually died for another human. There is a difference there that you are missing. Giving a college kid your bike and dying are two very different scenarios so yes I would say someone choosing to die is a lapse of rational judgement, you just did a good deed. Congrates

   Are you going to argue that the majority of the poplulation are willing martyrs and hereos? If the majority are not then your arguement is invalid because as I stated martyrs and hereos are execptions not the rule.

   Matthew 20
   10″When those hired first came, they thought that they would receive more; but each of them also received a denarius. 11″When they received it, they grumbled at the landowner, 12saying, ‘These last men have worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the scorching heat of the day.’ 13″But he answered and said to one of them, Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for a denarius? 14’Take what is yours and go, but I wish to give to this last man the same as to you.

   15Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with what is my own? Or is your eye envious because I am generous?’

9. Stephen: I am not sure about the point you want to make with this Biblical passage, but it is a really good passage for discussion. First of all, God is the landowner–just because God has the right to do as he pleases with his “wealth,” by no means implies that God is giving the rich the right to do the same. God is using this story to illustrate his grace–to declare his desire to be generous even to those who may seem to deserve it the least. It is the principle behind this passage–like the story of the Prodigal Son and the thief on the cross–that humanbeings have a hard time digesting. The Pharisees definitely had a hard time with it. Although I don’t believe the passage is really advocating any kind of economic system, it certainly does seem to state that the people who did the least work got the same wages as did those who worked all day. That really sounds unfair doesn’t it? Does it sound like free enterprise? Does it sound like socialism or communism where everyone gets the same amount of money regardless of whether they worked 8 hours or 1 hour?

10. They verse is refering to a man who owns a vineyard. He in the end of the story chooses to pay each of the hired help the same no matter how much they worked. What Im pointing out here is the workers become upset that those who worked less were paid the same. The owner then replys

    15Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with what is my own? Or is your eye envious because I am generous?’

    Meaning that he informs the workers this is my land, my wealth and I can pay you any manner I please.

    Note the fact that he makes it clear that his choice is his own because it is his wealth not because everyone is entitled to his wealth. He is choosing to be generous.

11. Stephen: I’m sorry; there’s always a chance that I could be wrong–but as I said, This is a parable: God is the landowner–this parable has nothing whatsoever to do with condoning the rich to withhold their wealth from anyone–or God’s giving the rich the go ahead to be as selfish or as generous as he chooses to be. It is all about God’s grace–I believe it says more about God giving the Gentile “late comers” the right to inherit his kingdom and eternal life–that they are just as deserving of his grace as were the Jews.

12. God is choosing to grant eternal life to all because he is generous just as the vineyard owner in the parable is choosing to pay his wealth is being generous. There is obligation from neither God nor from the property owner.

13. The parable wouldnt work if the property owner did not have wealth to be generous with because that would indicate God has no ability to be generous with his grace.

14. The owner wouldn’t have any wealth if he wasn’t paying people to do his work for him and profiting off their labor… Do you think they picked less than a days wages worth of grapes (or whatever was being grown)?
    The parable isn’t about a vineyard or a vineyard owner or a bunch of workers… the parable is about : “The Kingdom of Heaven is like …”. It is a metaphor, a parable… It is about what justice looks like.
    If you really want to get literal into the meaning of the story, it means EVERYONE deserves a living wage no matter how much work they do… it is not about the generosity of the owner of the vineyard. In fact, the counter-intuitiveness of the owner’s behavior would have had the crowd murmuring and whispering as Jesus finished the story… “what a meshugener, what a poor businessman…”. Yet this is exactly what Jesus wanted them to understand… THIS is how we are to treat others and be treated. In a just society, this is how it would be done.

    Interestingly enough, have you ever wondered why there were so many workers available throughout the day for the owner to pick and choose anytime he wanted?

    There is a great book called Listening to the Parables of Jesus, which discusses this unique teaching method used by Jesus. His first and major point of the book is that parables are meant to rock your boat; to haunt you, not spoon feed aphoristic wisdom to you.

15. “The parable wouldnt work if the property owner did not have wealth to be generous with because that would indicate God has no ability to be generous with his grace.”

    So you think Jesus was equating being wealthy with being God? (Or being God with being wealthy…? THAT is exactly what Karl Marx would say.)

    The ruling ideas of every society have always been the ideas of the ruling class…

16. This post is about health care–just takes a while to get there. Personally, I don’t believe any form of government, social, or economic system–capitalism, socialism, communism, free enterprise–will operate without greed showing up. Philosophically, Kcdad and I probably part company on this concept. However, any system that allows people to accumulate wealth will probably be the one that produces the most greed. And I believe that all forms allow some people to be wealthy. You’ll end up with either a few greedy people who are allowed to accumulate wealth or a larger number of greedy people (probably as under capitalism). Therefore, I do not believe that any man-made government will ever be a “Christian” government–that’s why Jesus wants to set up his own kingdom. However, I believe that Christians can still follow Jesus’ precepts about kingdom no matter what form of government is in place in their own country. I definitely believe that Jesus taught that the rich should help the poor and, my own opinion is that Christians should support any efforts (individual, church, or government) to see that the poor get the help they need. I am not at all saying that the poor have no obligation to contribute to their own care–or that they aren’t under the same “kingdom” rules to help others. Haven’t studies been done to show that the poor in our society are quite often the most generous–remember that poor woman in the Bible that gave all she had. Many of you seem to keep bringing up the poor who do not deserve national health care because they don’t work, etc. The non-working poor already have some semblance of health care for which they do not pay. However, the working poor work just as hard as the rest of us–and quite often work in jobs that serve us every day at minimum wage and no benefits. Kcdad mentioned a person that might well work three jobs and still have no benefits. First things first, I think Christian Americans should come to grips with their own beliefs about the Biblical commands (not suggestions) to help the poor and then support a government plan that would best get that job done. Also, I’m a little confused by all this talk about voluntary giving. It has caused me to think about what I believe about the concept of free will as illustrated in the story of Adam and Eve and throughout the Bible. This is a new thought for me, so I am just trying it out. I believe that there is only one major decision (Biblical speaking only) that all of us make–to follow Jesus or not follow him (the plan of salvation with which we are familiar)–God allows us to accept or reject that plan. Once one has accepted that “plan,” then the Bible tells us how to live our lives under a “Lord.” I think free will fairly much ends there in that we have again two choices: to obey or not to obey. But here’s nothing in the book about doing things your own way. And many of us–myself definitely included–still choose our own way often and I hope that God’s grace still applies.

17. This is a commercial of sorts. Speaking of free enterprise and entrepreneurship, I went to eat at the SmoKing Pit in the Northwoods Mall—as I often do. The business is run by two of my former Manual students, long married with children—and the whole family and some extended family run the restaurant. Everywhere you look at the restaurant you see a plaque of a Bible verse and in one place even a Bible displayed—there is no doubt that the Citchens serve God first and then customers (and that works well for all of us). I remember when Michael Citchens was in high school, and I was working in the summer work program at Urban League. He worked as a very young teen-ager for Marjorie LaFont at the University of Illinois Extension Center (dealing with nutrition) that was located in a south side church at the time. Michael proved himself to be a very good worker—of course, I believe I know where he learned his work ethic. Anyway he married Michelle and they started, I believe, their first business making cheese cakes (still the best in town, in my opinion). Michael and Michelle have owned the restaurant for several years and, also, run a very busy catering service. Last night, Michael’s twenty-year-old son came to our table just to visit (he didn’t know any of us; I hadn’t seen him in a long time). I said, “You are Michael’s son, aren’t you; you certainly look like your dad.” He said, “I get that a lot; thank you very much.” That would have to be rewarding for a dad to hear. I know how Michael and Michelle have raised their children—and it is so apparent as the children serve customers at the restaurant. We ordered five adult meals and three children’s meals for only $80.00 (very plentiful portions of food)—it would have been more if they hadn’t run out of cheesecake. I say this all to prove that greed is not always in operation in our capitalist system—but I believe this example is due to the fact that the Citchens follow the kingdom rules.

18. http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/08/25/harris.primary.care.doctor/index.html?eref=igoogle_cnn

    GREAT article on doctors and the business of health care. Oh for the days when people did things because they cared about people or beauty… whether it was farming, hunting, doctoring, teaching, the law, athletics, the arts or construction… now people do things for PROFIT, or they do something else.

19. “Once one has accepted that “plan,” then the Bible tells us how to live our lives under a “Lord.””
    I don’t particularly like the monarchial model that “Lord” implies. I prefer the passage from the Gospel according to John where Jesus says YOU ARE MY FRIENDS… I don’t think Jesus EVER suggested he be worshiped, bowed to or treated as anything other than an equal. (He even tells the disciples they would go on to do GREATER things than he.)
    I also don’ t recall Jesus ever qualifying his love or healing or teachings by saying someone had to believe or accept anything.

    There is an interesting meaning to the word command that we rarely think of… but it comes from the Latin… commendare (as in “into your hands I commend my spirit”). It means to entrust into ones care. When Jesus or Moses commands us… they are entrusting into our care the survival of the community… or more broadly, the species.
    * Main Entry: 1com·mand
    * Pronunciation: k?-?mand
    * Function: verb
    * Etymology: Middle English comanden, from Anglo-French cumander, from Vulgar Latin *commandare, alteration of Latin commendare to commit to one’s charge — more at commend
    * Date: 14th century

20. Kcdad: Straight answer, please–do we disagree about the divinity of Christ? You generally speak of him only with regard to his earthly ministry–and I agree that he often spoke to his disciples as equals (but was not their equal, in reality)–but not always. Didn’t he demand more of Peter when he asked, “Who do you say that I am?” As God, I believe Jesus definitely expects to be worshipped and obeyed. Was it not his declaration that he was equal to God that got him into so much trouble with the Pharisess–and ultimately led to his death–his humanitarian teachings did not put him on a cross? I like your study of the meaning of “command”–sheds light on the use of the word.
    Your “I also don’ t recall Jesus ever qualifying his love or healing or teachings by saying someone had to believe or accept anything.” He never qualfied his love–but I don’t agree that he asked nothing of his disciples–he asked everything–and to believe in Him as more than a man. On that “rock”–on which I build all my faith–I cannot compromise.

21. C.J.–I am truly sorry–carelessness; I think we’ve ventured into posting under the wrong topic–definitely mine is in Kcdad territory. Please feel free to move mine.

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