What would you like to talk about today? Leave a comment and start your own discussion!
54 thoughts on “Thursday Open Soapbox”
Would you rather your tax dollars be used to pay for attorneys for career criminals or would you rather your tax dollars be used to pay for doctors for the working poor?
Paul, that’s a pretty easy one. Having had a lousy run-in with the healthcare system recently, I’m thankful that I’m not seriously ill.
I made an appointment with a doctor’s office. I arranged our whole day around this appointment and had to secure childcare. When I arrived at the office, I had to wait 20 minutes just for the privilege to start filling out the mounds of paperwork (which were supposed to be mailed to me in advance, I found out later). After another 15 minutes of filling out forms, the receptionist informed me that my insurance doesn’t cover the provider I was scheduled to see and I would have to reschedule for another day with a different provider. She wasn’t sorry or even pleasant about it. I said I wasn’t going to reschedule, and I left.
I came home and called another office to make an appointment. I asked them to verify that my insurance was acceptable to them. It wasn’t. They accept my insurance but not through my husband’s employer. ??????
So I called the last available specialist in the area. Good news! He takes my insurance and likes the place of employment. BUT…he requires a doctor’s referral before I can make an appointment. So I have to pay a doctor to tell me that I need to see the other doctor, even though I already know I do!
My husband’s boss was kind enough to refer me to her doctor, so I call to make an appointment. Good news! My insurance is acceptable, and I don’t need a referral for the referral. BUT…she’s not taking new patients. I threw around my husband’s boss’s name to no avail. Apparently this is one case where it’s not “who you know”.
I asked what number would I be on the list. The receptionist said, “Oh, I have no idea. The list is pages and pages long.” I said, “I have no chance of ever seeing this doctor, do I?” and she said, “Probably not.” I felt like I was in a bad Seinfeld episode.
CJ, that’s what you get for giving me an open soapbox. 🙂
yeah… Doctors “care” about the sick. Lawyers “care” about the law. Politicians “care” about the people. Businesses “care” about the consumer.
We know what they really “care” about… $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Too bad $ runs our society. (Did I accidentally type “ruins our society”?) It sure would be a Utopian society if people actually cared more about people than we care about things. That’s too much to expect.
I haven’t seen much “care” in the healthcare system, but thankfully I haven’t had much experience with doctors. When I called each of the 3 doctors, the first question they asked was not, “What is wrong with you?” or “How can we help you?” No, it was “What insurance do you have?”
Granted, any money the government decides to spend doing ONE thing could be spent on another. After essential services like security and transportation, all government is bread and circuses. The government doles our money back to us on the basis of how it helps the politicians in office now get elected tomorrow.
Still, saying it’s either provide legal representation to the poor (which is who we are talking about) or health care to the poor (who DO get taxpayer supported health care) is a rather simplistic way of putting it.
Look at it this way: The Constitution guarantees everyone the right to a fair trial. Not one word about the right to free health care.
And anyone who things most hardened criminals are getting represented by fat, shyster (pardon the term) lawyers isn’t paying attention.
Does the Constitution guarantee everyone a right to free public education? Yet we do have it. Did anyone ever stop to think that there are many people who do not work who, neverthelss, get very good insurance. They would be the the non-working spouses and all the underage children of employees of many companies. These “extras” are certainly a drain on any insurance program. Yet, even though I am single, I do not resent these “extras” at all because I do value the rights of spouses (usually women) and the children to receive health care via the company of the employed spouses. I believe it is in the best interests of everyone in this country that everyone has health insurance. First of all, the emergency care which is used by many of the non-insured costs the taxpayers considerable money. Also, all of us come into contact with the uninsured every day–and it is in the best interests of all of us that those with whom we have contact be in good health.
Billy: “right to free health care.”
We hold these truths to be self evident. That all men are created equal. That they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights: Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness… I think that might include health care.
“We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common Defence, promote the general Welfare and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”
Notice the specificity with which Jefferson wrote this… “DOMESTIC tranquility”, COMMON defence (sic), GENERAL welfare, etc.
1) We have no business nation building overseas.
2) We have no right to initiate military action overseas. (South America, Cuba, Philippines, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran)
3) Health, housing, and food are all a part of the general welfare.
4) Secure Liberty for ourselves and our posterity… not for other cultures and societies.
kcdad,
1) The first quote is from the Declaration of Independence. A nice document but in no way legally binding.
2) The second quote is from the US Constitution. Jefferson was in France when the constitution was written.
3) It is very easy to equate “common defense” and or “general welfare” with economic or military action beyond the borders of the US.
just a guy… bee a u tiful. The Constitution isn’t legally binding either… Natural Law gives us the right to reject it and institute new government ANY time. The Declaration of Independence (A “nice document”!) not legally binding… that is such a hoot! NOTHING is legally binding.
Only the people are sovereign in our society.
“A man named Gouverneur Morris of Pennsylvania was in charge of the committee to draft the final copy of the Constitution. Other men who had much to do with writing the Constitution included John Dickinson, Gouverneur Morris, ****Thomas Jefferson****, John Adams, Thomas Paine, Edmund Randolph, James Madison, Roger Sherman, James Wilson, and George Wythe. Morris was given the task of putting all the convention’s resolutions and decisions into polished form. Morris actually “wrote” the Constitution.” http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_wrote_the_US_Constitution
“I was in Europe when the Constitution was planned, and never saw it till after it was established. On receiving it, I wrote strongly to Mr. Madison, urging the want of provision for… an express reservation to the States of all rights not specifically granted to the Union.” –Thomas Jefferson to Joseph Priestley, 1802. ME 10:325
I’ve concluded that kcdad just enjoys stirring the pot. If someone were to comment here that 2+2=4, he’d say mathematics is really just a clandestine plot to make everyone conform to capitalist ideals, and that everyone should have the freedom to believe that 2 plus 2 equals whatever they want it to equal. 🙂
Aside from stirring the pot, Kcdad does cause us all to think a little harder about where we stand on all these issues–and to work a little harder to express our philosophies accurately, etc.. Most of the time–wherever we stand–Kcdad will not stand with us. 🙂
“Although Thomas Jefferson was in France serving as United States minister when the Federal Constitution was written in 1787, he was able to influence the development of the federal government through his correspondence. Later his actions as the first secretary of state, vice president, leader of the first political opposition party, and third president of the United States were crucial in shaping the look of the nation’s capital and defining the powers of the Constitution and the nature of the emerging republic. ” http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/jefferson/jefffed.html
What ever it takes for people to wake up ans start thinking for themselves….
“Thomas Jefferson’s December 20, 1787, letter to James Madison contains objections to key parts of the new Federal Constitution. Primarily, Jefferson noted the absence of a bill of rights and the failure to provide for rotation in office or term limits, particularly for the chief executive. During the writing and ratification of the constitution, in an effort to influence the formation of the new governmental structure, Jefferson wrote many similar letters to friends and political acquaintances in America.”
You’ll like this one Karrie:
“Thomas Jefferson’s February 15, 1791, opinion on the constitutionality of a national bank is considered one of the stellar statements on the limited powers and strict construction of the Federal Constitution. ”
By the way, 2 + 2 = 4, but only by definition, and only in mathematics.
I’ll always be proud to stand with you, Sharon. I just might not always agree with you. I will always defend your right to be.
Likewise, Kcdad; your statement sounds a bit like Voltaire and I concur: “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.”
I looked at my property tax bill. The school district gets a chunk. How is that free education?
Emtronics: It’s “free” in that someone can enroll their kids in Peoria schools whether they pay taxes directly or not.
But then, you derive a benefit from living in a society in which everyone (well, anyone who wants one) has an education.
I’m not arguing against the benefit to taxpayer supported education. I’m just saying that I don’t see a specific right to a free public education or free health care.
I get the “provide for the general welfare” argument, but that hardly is the same thing as there being a constitutional right to a free education or to free health are. The right to a fair trial? Yep, right there.
And does it not occur to anyone that because it’s “free,” some of those who receive it withotu paying for it (directly) do not value it, and want to use it for babysitting?
Value it… here we go again… value is always measured in $$$ in our society. Could we just stop that nonsense?
(BTW babysitting is one of the major purposes of public mandatory education; got to get mom and dad out there in the labor force)
kcdad
i think you would enjoy “Priceless – Knowing the cost of everything and the value of Nothing” by Frank Ackerman and Lisa Heinzerling
“What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.”
– Oscar Wilde
“A damning indictment of cost-benefit analysis applied to health and environmental protection.”
– Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.
“Priceless takes apart the barren but intricate hokum of deregulatory formulaics that have duped key members of the mass media and frozen your rights to a cleaner, safer, and more efficient marketplace and environment… [A] very important, unique book.”
– Ralph Nader
Yup… I don’t have to read it… He is preaching to the choir. I’m already a convert.
Janel: Did you call the insurance company and ask what the process and procedure was for visiting a specialist? If so, did you follow the process?
mdd–No, I didn’t. I never go to doctors OR specialists, so I’m not familiar with how the whole racket works. But the point of the story was not what an idiot I am, but how absurd the whole system of doctors/specialists/insurance companies is.
Sharon–“the non-working spouses and all the underage children of employees are certainly a drain on any insurance program.” My husband has to pay for his insurance through his employer, and he pays an additional premium for me, and an additional additional premium for each child. Also, we hardly ever use it, so we’re more of a fountain than a drain.
Jane1–I agree in that I seldom used insurance before I retired. I enjoyed good health for a long time. Now things aren’t quite so grand–so now I’m cashing in on all my contributions from the past–and those of many others. I guess that’s what the insurance companies count on–that many of us do not use our benefits for a considerable length of time. I understand the spouses and children pay premiums–but they are still eligible for insurance–unlike many of the working poor.
Kcdad: “yeah… Doctors “care” about the sick. Lawyers “care” about the law. Politicians “care” about the people. Businesses “care” about the consumer.
We know what they really “care” about… $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Too bad $ runs our society. (Did I accidentally type “ruins our society”?) It sure would be a Utopian society if people actually cared more about people than we care about things. That’s too much to expect.”
I don’t think that kc is a cynic with this line. I see a dreamer. (no offense intended kc… actually meant as a defense)
At the core of thought I think that we agree on so much, but somewhere my application of what I sense as reality has taken me on a different path.
I do see humans desire for objects (i.e. money) as the thing that drives most people. But I guess that I am the cynic that gave up the hope that this would ever change.
Therefore I see the pursuit of money as something we need to openly acknowledge and we need to “ride that horse”. Its not the best answer, but it is the real one. I have found so many liberals that I agree with when we get the opportunity to talk without the tension that political discussion brings. I am a conservative that accepts competition as a the foundation for society not because it is the “right” thing, but because it is the “real” thing.
Basically, maybe it is us conservtives that are the cynics about the state of the human condition. I too wish it could be different.
(I always use conservative….. I never claim a party… parties are based in hidden agendas of policiticans. There are fiscally conservative democrats and society liberal republicans.)
Wow…. you guys made me break another vow… when I left law school I vowed to not talk politics.
Collectivists know the value of everything and the price of nothing.
Boy, District 150 officials (lawyers) couldn’t wait to throw Mrs. McArdle out the front door of Lindbergh on the last day of school. Guess she was “good enough” to spend the last month of school with the staff and students, but now that school is out, they want her GONE! Why? Please help us all understand what she did wrong. Here’s the scenario: You start a new job, you do your best everyday (by the way, you are an award winning principal), you see some “funny business” so you try to figure it out because you do not want anyone to ever think you were involved, then, you have your contract terminated because “You aren’t a good fit”. We are so confused! District 150, no wonder you are in such a mess, you don’t know your a@# from a HOLE in the ground. TIME TO CLEAN UP WISCONSIN AVE.
People of Peoria, you get what you get if you don’t stand up to be counted! I encourage you to call District 150 (Ken Hinton) and ask for an explanation as to why he further insults Mrs. McArdle by making her leave (like she has done something wrong), yet keeps a liar and thief like Mary Davis……
Yes, Steve, on this blog we always venture into the forbidden topic of politics–and even religion. I have a terrible time–not really terrible but somewhat difficult since I am a theological conservative and most often a liberal when it comes to politics and social issues. However, that stance works for me.
Sayitisn’tso: The Fat Lady hasn’t sung yet, as she? I hope not.
Not to change the subject or anything, but I was wondering when C.J. would get around to telling us about that GORGEOUS new library building they are planning out north.
Steve:I see the pursuit of money as something we need to openly acknowledge and we need to “ride that horse”.
I understand that approach and I used to think I could do that. I can’t, and I guess I don’t need to anymore. I would feel much better about that approach if what we were paid and what we did to earn that pay was a matter of public record and freely discussed rather than hidden in “we don’t talk about that at work” terms.
What are the responsibilities of a principal once students are gone? teacher, room assignments, etc. If grievances were filed, maybe that was a reason…..
Sharon I am the opposite. I am a theological liberal that ends up being conservative….. interesting….
Steve – just what does that mean? Sharon – how do you interpret, basesd on what you know of him?
Facilitator: I’ll have to let Steve speak for himself. Also, defining a theological liberal is a bit harder than describing a theological conservative. On second thought, being a theological conservative today often implies political views, many of which I do not share. I guess we all fall at various points along the spectrum.
Ok… I will give one example of what I mean…
On a personel level I would have no problem living in some type of communal setting. I love the idea about mass transportation that was once talked about in Europe (Germany I think it was). They wanted people to rent electric vehicles that they would drive to a parking garage, drop it off, and take a train to work. After work when they returned they would pick up the first available unit, drive it home, and plug it in. No actual individual ownership in the vehicle. Its like renting bowling shoes.
(I am an-ex nuclear power plant operator in the Navy and I know we can provide this type of “green” electricity…. don’t get me started on the environmentalists that think water moderated plants like we have in the US are bad… their ignorance is maintaining our addiction to fossil fuels which are truly poison to the earth. I will take a Three Mile Island over an Exxon Valdez any day. Our plants can not go “Chernobyl”. That was a graphite moderated plant without a containment vessel. If anyone wants to get a nuclear 101 discussion come by RHS in July.)
But I know that this type of system will never work. The vast amount of people are driven by other factors that stand in the way.
In summary, I don’t have any problem with high gas prices and the profits that are made. This will force people to drive less and it will force the “supply and demand” of capitalism to get rid of our poisonous addiction to Hummers and other SUVs. (I drive a Civic.) So in the end it looks like I am a conservative pro-oil person but my choice is driven by an environmental liberal stance.
I so wish that we could have a free national health care system to help everyone, but I can make similiar arguments as to why I am not for a national health care system (as usually offered) based on the fact that humans will abuse it to such a level that the complete system will become substandard and eventually that isn’t in the best interest of society. Just ask veterans about their free health care. The abuse of the free health care and the lack of an economic drive to keep great doctors create, as a whole, substandard medical.
I wish I had to answers to overcome our desire for individual gain versus society gain.
Did that explain?
ok.. maybe that was two
also.. that was written very quickly… I need to proof read before I hit send…lol
I will only suggest in my “dreamy” way that if money were eliminated from society, people would choose professions because of their interest and love in the field (education, medicine, science, etc…) and those necessary things in society like water sanitation, road maintenance, waste disposal and food production would be done for the good of the community (as a whole and each individual member.) What I see as the cost for doing business this way is a loss of consumer goods… plasma TVs, Ipods, etc… oh well, too bad. We could go see those people who wanted to be performers perform.
We have come away from being a part of one’s profession… we are no longer farmers… we are agricultural engineers. We are no longer construction workers or builders, we are laborers and contractors.
That’s because there is little or no intrinsic worth in work any more, the only worth is how much it is gets compensated monetarily. We don’t care what we do, we just want that paycheck.
kc: I don’t mean dreamer as a negative. I often wish I could latch more on to that than my cynic view.
But… I completely agree with your vision. True freedom was when humans had to survive on your own. The positive was that no one them what to do. The negative was that they were to free to die without assistance also. As we realized that it was easier to survive with the help of others we slowly gave up freedoms.
Eventually we have somehow created a modern twist on the word freedom that implies that a “free” society means that its members are taken care of and owed something. That isn’t free at all.
see … i missed the word “told”.. I miss the edit button that is on most forums
[SMILING] I have no problem with being a dreamer…
“Some look at things that are, and ask why. I dream of things that never were and ask why not?”
OTHER quotes from George Bernard Shaw…
* Capitalism has destroyed our belief in any effective power but that of self interest backed by force.
* Do not waste your time on Social Questions. What is the matter with the poor is Poverty; what is the matter with the rich is Uselessness.
* I am a Christian. That obliges me to be a Communist.
lol
Steve – I currently live in a place that you call “communal living.” So, I guess it is possible. The vast majority do not drive cars but ride bikes, walk, and rely on public transportation. The communicyt is compassionate about following the recycling rules and having a litter free environment. There are a lot of people in a small amount of space but they live in an orderly fashion and are respectful of others, so it somehow all works.
Frustrated,
I was able to visit Tokyo twice in the late 90’s…. I loved their committment to public transportation. (I also loved how they wear a mask when they are sick so that others do not get their germs.)
Sounds great frustrated!
How many of you have received and paid their property tax bills and saw the amount being charged to the #$%& airport? My house is realistically worth $130,000 and the amount is about $180 per year! This is more than I pay for the township roads ($128) which I actually use on a daily basis!
Okay, I know it’s past Thursday but I’m climbing on the soap box and giving another example of the awesomeness of 150. Today, at Kingman, not even two hours after the kids left the building, Illinois Water showed up and shut the water off!!! It’s to “change the water meter”. I guess that’s not something that could be done closer to the end of the week or maybe even next week. It had to be done today while the teachers were still in the building and trying to pack up their things so it all can be moved to new schools. It had to be done during a regularly scheduled work day for teachers. We don’t need water for something simple like flushing toilets or anything. Now, tomorrow is another regularly scheduled work day, the last one, for teachers. I found out the school was told the water would be off until late in the day…..TOMORROW. Thankfully, we have a friendly relationship with the church across the street so we will be making treks over there throughout the day again tomorrow. What a wonderful employer we have. Nothing like kicking somebody when they are already down.
I betcha they saved 10 or 15 dollars by doing it today.
Must be part of that $1.2 million they are going to save.
Would you rather your tax dollars be used to pay for attorneys for career criminals or would you rather your tax dollars be used to pay for doctors for the working poor?
Goofball on Hardball
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNCeBY-4_Ps
Nobody watches Hardball!
Paul, that’s a pretty easy one. Having had a lousy run-in with the healthcare system recently, I’m thankful that I’m not seriously ill.
I made an appointment with a doctor’s office. I arranged our whole day around this appointment and had to secure childcare. When I arrived at the office, I had to wait 20 minutes just for the privilege to start filling out the mounds of paperwork (which were supposed to be mailed to me in advance, I found out later). After another 15 minutes of filling out forms, the receptionist informed me that my insurance doesn’t cover the provider I was scheduled to see and I would have to reschedule for another day with a different provider. She wasn’t sorry or even pleasant about it. I said I wasn’t going to reschedule, and I left.
I came home and called another office to make an appointment. I asked them to verify that my insurance was acceptable to them. It wasn’t. They accept my insurance but not through my husband’s employer. ??????
So I called the last available specialist in the area. Good news! He takes my insurance and likes the place of employment. BUT…he requires a doctor’s referral before I can make an appointment. So I have to pay a doctor to tell me that I need to see the other doctor, even though I already know I do!
My husband’s boss was kind enough to refer me to her doctor, so I call to make an appointment. Good news! My insurance is acceptable, and I don’t need a referral for the referral. BUT…she’s not taking new patients. I threw around my husband’s boss’s name to no avail. Apparently this is one case where it’s not “who you know”.
I asked what number would I be on the list. The receptionist said, “Oh, I have no idea. The list is pages and pages long.” I said, “I have no chance of ever seeing this doctor, do I?” and she said, “Probably not.” I felt like I was in a bad Seinfeld episode.
CJ, that’s what you get for giving me an open soapbox. 🙂
yeah… Doctors “care” about the sick. Lawyers “care” about the law. Politicians “care” about the people. Businesses “care” about the consumer.
We know what they really “care” about… $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Too bad $ runs our society. (Did I accidentally type “ruins our society”?) It sure would be a Utopian society if people actually cared more about people than we care about things. That’s too much to expect.
I haven’t seen much “care” in the healthcare system, but thankfully I haven’t had much experience with doctors. When I called each of the 3 doctors, the first question they asked was not, “What is wrong with you?” or “How can we help you?” No, it was “What insurance do you have?”
Granted, any money the government decides to spend doing ONE thing could be spent on another. After essential services like security and transportation, all government is bread and circuses. The government doles our money back to us on the basis of how it helps the politicians in office now get elected tomorrow.
Still, saying it’s either provide legal representation to the poor (which is who we are talking about) or health care to the poor (who DO get taxpayer supported health care) is a rather simplistic way of putting it.
Look at it this way: The Constitution guarantees everyone the right to a fair trial. Not one word about the right to free health care.
And anyone who things most hardened criminals are getting represented by fat, shyster (pardon the term) lawyers isn’t paying attention.
Does the Constitution guarantee everyone a right to free public education? Yet we do have it. Did anyone ever stop to think that there are many people who do not work who, neverthelss, get very good insurance. They would be the the non-working spouses and all the underage children of employees of many companies. These “extras” are certainly a drain on any insurance program. Yet, even though I am single, I do not resent these “extras” at all because I do value the rights of spouses (usually women) and the children to receive health care via the company of the employed spouses. I believe it is in the best interests of everyone in this country that everyone has health insurance. First of all, the emergency care which is used by many of the non-insured costs the taxpayers considerable money. Also, all of us come into contact with the uninsured every day–and it is in the best interests of all of us that those with whom we have contact be in good health.
Billy: “right to free health care.”
We hold these truths to be self evident. That all men are created equal. That they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights: Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness… I think that might include health care.
“We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common Defence, promote the general Welfare and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”
Notice the specificity with which Jefferson wrote this… “DOMESTIC tranquility”, COMMON defence (sic), GENERAL welfare, etc.
1) We have no business nation building overseas.
2) We have no right to initiate military action overseas. (South America, Cuba, Philippines, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran)
3) Health, housing, and food are all a part of the general welfare.
4) Secure Liberty for ourselves and our posterity… not for other cultures and societies.
kcdad,
1) The first quote is from the Declaration of Independence. A nice document but in no way legally binding.
2) The second quote is from the US Constitution. Jefferson was in France when the constitution was written.
3) It is very easy to equate “common defense” and or “general welfare” with economic or military action beyond the borders of the US.
just a guy… bee a u tiful. The Constitution isn’t legally binding either… Natural Law gives us the right to reject it and institute new government ANY time. The Declaration of Independence (A “nice document”!) not legally binding… that is such a hoot! NOTHING is legally binding.
Only the people are sovereign in our society.
“A man named Gouverneur Morris of Pennsylvania was in charge of the committee to draft the final copy of the Constitution. Other men who had much to do with writing the Constitution included John Dickinson, Gouverneur Morris, ****Thomas Jefferson****, John Adams, Thomas Paine, Edmund Randolph, James Madison, Roger Sherman, James Wilson, and George Wythe. Morris was given the task of putting all the convention’s resolutions and decisions into polished form. Morris actually “wrote” the Constitution.”
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_wrote_the_US_Constitution
http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff0900.htm
I’ve concluded that kcdad just enjoys stirring the pot. If someone were to comment here that 2+2=4, he’d say mathematics is really just a clandestine plot to make everyone conform to capitalist ideals, and that everyone should have the freedom to believe that 2 plus 2 equals whatever they want it to equal. 🙂
Aside from stirring the pot, Kcdad does cause us all to think a little harder about where we stand on all these issues–and to work a little harder to express our philosophies accurately, etc.. Most of the time–wherever we stand–Kcdad will not stand with us. 🙂
“Although Thomas Jefferson was in France serving as United States minister when the Federal Constitution was written in 1787, he was able to influence the development of the federal government through his correspondence. Later his actions as the first secretary of state, vice president, leader of the first political opposition party, and third president of the United States were crucial in shaping the look of the nation’s capital and defining the powers of the Constitution and the nature of the emerging republic. ”
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/jefferson/jefffed.html
What ever it takes for people to wake up ans start thinking for themselves….
“Thomas Jefferson’s December 20, 1787, letter to James Madison contains objections to key parts of the new Federal Constitution. Primarily, Jefferson noted the absence of a bill of rights and the failure to provide for rotation in office or term limits, particularly for the chief executive. During the writing and ratification of the constitution, in an effort to influence the formation of the new governmental structure, Jefferson wrote many similar letters to friends and political acquaintances in America.”
You’ll like this one Karrie:
“Thomas Jefferson’s February 15, 1791, opinion on the constitutionality of a national bank is considered one of the stellar statements on the limited powers and strict construction of the Federal Constitution. ”
By the way, 2 + 2 = 4, but only by definition, and only in mathematics.
I’ll always be proud to stand with you, Sharon. I just might not always agree with you. I will always defend your right to be.
Likewise, Kcdad; your statement sounds a bit like Voltaire and I concur: “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.”
I looked at my property tax bill. The school district gets a chunk. How is that free education?
Emtronics: It’s “free” in that someone can enroll their kids in Peoria schools whether they pay taxes directly or not.
But then, you derive a benefit from living in a society in which everyone (well, anyone who wants one) has an education.
I’m not arguing against the benefit to taxpayer supported education. I’m just saying that I don’t see a specific right to a free public education or free health care.
I get the “provide for the general welfare” argument, but that hardly is the same thing as there being a constitutional right to a free education or to free health are. The right to a fair trial? Yep, right there.
And does it not occur to anyone that because it’s “free,” some of those who receive it withotu paying for it (directly) do not value it, and want to use it for babysitting?
Value it… here we go again… value is always measured in $$$ in our society. Could we just stop that nonsense?
(BTW babysitting is one of the major purposes of public mandatory education; got to get mom and dad out there in the labor force)
kcdad
i think you would enjoy “Priceless – Knowing the cost of everything and the value of Nothing” by Frank Ackerman and Lisa Heinzerling
“What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.”
– Oscar Wilde
“A damning indictment of cost-benefit analysis applied to health and environmental protection.”
– Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.
“Priceless takes apart the barren but intricate hokum of deregulatory formulaics that have duped key members of the mass media and frozen your rights to a cleaner, safer, and more efficient marketplace and environment… [A] very important, unique book.”
– Ralph Nader
Yup… I don’t have to read it… He is preaching to the choir. I’m already a convert.
Janel: Did you call the insurance company and ask what the process and procedure was for visiting a specialist? If so, did you follow the process?
mdd–No, I didn’t. I never go to doctors OR specialists, so I’m not familiar with how the whole racket works. But the point of the story was not what an idiot I am, but how absurd the whole system of doctors/specialists/insurance companies is.
Sharon–“the non-working spouses and all the underage children of employees are certainly a drain on any insurance program.” My husband has to pay for his insurance through his employer, and he pays an additional premium for me, and an additional additional premium for each child. Also, we hardly ever use it, so we’re more of a fountain than a drain.
Jane1–I agree in that I seldom used insurance before I retired. I enjoyed good health for a long time. Now things aren’t quite so grand–so now I’m cashing in on all my contributions from the past–and those of many others. I guess that’s what the insurance companies count on–that many of us do not use our benefits for a considerable length of time. I understand the spouses and children pay premiums–but they are still eligible for insurance–unlike many of the working poor.
Kcdad: “yeah… Doctors “care” about the sick. Lawyers “care” about the law. Politicians “care” about the people. Businesses “care” about the consumer.
We know what they really “care” about… $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Too bad $ runs our society. (Did I accidentally type “ruins our society”?) It sure would be a Utopian society if people actually cared more about people than we care about things. That’s too much to expect.”
I don’t think that kc is a cynic with this line. I see a dreamer. (no offense intended kc… actually meant as a defense)
At the core of thought I think that we agree on so much, but somewhere my application of what I sense as reality has taken me on a different path.
I do see humans desire for objects (i.e. money) as the thing that drives most people. But I guess that I am the cynic that gave up the hope that this would ever change.
Therefore I see the pursuit of money as something we need to openly acknowledge and we need to “ride that horse”. Its not the best answer, but it is the real one. I have found so many liberals that I agree with when we get the opportunity to talk without the tension that political discussion brings. I am a conservative that accepts competition as a the foundation for society not because it is the “right” thing, but because it is the “real” thing.
Basically, maybe it is us conservtives that are the cynics about the state of the human condition. I too wish it could be different.
(I always use conservative….. I never claim a party… parties are based in hidden agendas of policiticans. There are fiscally conservative democrats and society liberal republicans.)
Wow…. you guys made me break another vow… when I left law school I vowed to not talk politics.
Collectivists know the value of everything and the price of nothing.
Boy, District 150 officials (lawyers) couldn’t wait to throw Mrs. McArdle out the front door of Lindbergh on the last day of school. Guess she was “good enough” to spend the last month of school with the staff and students, but now that school is out, they want her GONE! Why? Please help us all understand what she did wrong. Here’s the scenario: You start a new job, you do your best everyday (by the way, you are an award winning principal), you see some “funny business” so you try to figure it out because you do not want anyone to ever think you were involved, then, you have your contract terminated because “You aren’t a good fit”. We are so confused! District 150, no wonder you are in such a mess, you don’t know your a@# from a HOLE in the ground. TIME TO CLEAN UP WISCONSIN AVE.
People of Peoria, you get what you get if you don’t stand up to be counted! I encourage you to call District 150 (Ken Hinton) and ask for an explanation as to why he further insults Mrs. McArdle by making her leave (like she has done something wrong), yet keeps a liar and thief like Mary Davis……
Yes, Steve, on this blog we always venture into the forbidden topic of politics–and even religion. I have a terrible time–not really terrible but somewhat difficult since I am a theological conservative and most often a liberal when it comes to politics and social issues. However, that stance works for me.
Sayitisn’tso: The Fat Lady hasn’t sung yet, as she? I hope not.
Not to change the subject or anything, but I was wondering when C.J. would get around to telling us about that GORGEOUS new library building they are planning out north.
Steve:I see the pursuit of money as something we need to openly acknowledge and we need to “ride that horse”.
I understand that approach and I used to think I could do that. I can’t, and I guess I don’t need to anymore. I would feel much better about that approach if what we were paid and what we did to earn that pay was a matter of public record and freely discussed rather than hidden in “we don’t talk about that at work” terms.
What are the responsibilities of a principal once students are gone? teacher, room assignments, etc. If grievances were filed, maybe that was a reason…..
Sharon I am the opposite. I am a theological liberal that ends up being conservative….. interesting….
Steve – just what does that mean? Sharon – how do you interpret, basesd on what you know of him?
Facilitator: I’ll have to let Steve speak for himself. Also, defining a theological liberal is a bit harder than describing a theological conservative. On second thought, being a theological conservative today often implies political views, many of which I do not share. I guess we all fall at various points along the spectrum.
Ok… I will give one example of what I mean…
On a personel level I would have no problem living in some type of communal setting. I love the idea about mass transportation that was once talked about in Europe (Germany I think it was). They wanted people to rent electric vehicles that they would drive to a parking garage, drop it off, and take a train to work. After work when they returned they would pick up the first available unit, drive it home, and plug it in. No actual individual ownership in the vehicle. Its like renting bowling shoes.
(I am an-ex nuclear power plant operator in the Navy and I know we can provide this type of “green” electricity…. don’t get me started on the environmentalists that think water moderated plants like we have in the US are bad… their ignorance is maintaining our addiction to fossil fuels which are truly poison to the earth. I will take a Three Mile Island over an Exxon Valdez any day. Our plants can not go “Chernobyl”. That was a graphite moderated plant without a containment vessel. If anyone wants to get a nuclear 101 discussion come by RHS in July.)
But I know that this type of system will never work. The vast amount of people are driven by other factors that stand in the way.
In summary, I don’t have any problem with high gas prices and the profits that are made. This will force people to drive less and it will force the “supply and demand” of capitalism to get rid of our poisonous addiction to Hummers and other SUVs. (I drive a Civic.) So in the end it looks like I am a conservative pro-oil person but my choice is driven by an environmental liberal stance.
I so wish that we could have a free national health care system to help everyone, but I can make similiar arguments as to why I am not for a national health care system (as usually offered) based on the fact that humans will abuse it to such a level that the complete system will become substandard and eventually that isn’t in the best interest of society. Just ask veterans about their free health care. The abuse of the free health care and the lack of an economic drive to keep great doctors create, as a whole, substandard medical.
I wish I had to answers to overcome our desire for individual gain versus society gain.
Did that explain?
ok.. maybe that was two
also.. that was written very quickly… I need to proof read before I hit send…lol
I will only suggest in my “dreamy” way that if money were eliminated from society, people would choose professions because of their interest and love in the field (education, medicine, science, etc…) and those necessary things in society like water sanitation, road maintenance, waste disposal and food production would be done for the good of the community (as a whole and each individual member.) What I see as the cost for doing business this way is a loss of consumer goods… plasma TVs, Ipods, etc… oh well, too bad. We could go see those people who wanted to be performers perform.
We have come away from being a part of one’s profession… we are no longer farmers… we are agricultural engineers. We are no longer construction workers or builders, we are laborers and contractors.
That’s because there is little or no intrinsic worth in work any more, the only worth is how much it is gets compensated monetarily. We don’t care what we do, we just want that paycheck.
kc: I don’t mean dreamer as a negative. I often wish I could latch more on to that than my cynic view.
But… I completely agree with your vision. True freedom was when humans had to survive on your own. The positive was that no one them what to do. The negative was that they were to free to die without assistance also. As we realized that it was easier to survive with the help of others we slowly gave up freedoms.
Eventually we have somehow created a modern twist on the word freedom that implies that a “free” society means that its members are taken care of and owed something. That isn’t free at all.
see … i missed the word “told”.. I miss the edit button that is on most forums
[SMILING] I have no problem with being a dreamer…
“Some look at things that are, and ask why. I dream of things that never were and ask why not?”
OTHER quotes from George Bernard Shaw…
* Capitalism has destroyed our belief in any effective power but that of self interest backed by force.
* Do not waste your time on Social Questions. What is the matter with the poor is Poverty; what is the matter with the rich is Uselessness.
* I am a Christian. That obliges me to be a Communist.
lol
Steve – I currently live in a place that you call “communal living.” So, I guess it is possible. The vast majority do not drive cars but ride bikes, walk, and rely on public transportation. The communicyt is compassionate about following the recycling rules and having a litter free environment. There are a lot of people in a small amount of space but they live in an orderly fashion and are respectful of others, so it somehow all works.
Frustrated,
I was able to visit Tokyo twice in the late 90’s…. I loved their committment to public transportation. (I also loved how they wear a mask when they are sick so that others do not get their germs.)
Sounds great frustrated!
How many of you have received and paid their property tax bills and saw the amount being charged to the #$%& airport? My house is realistically worth $130,000 and the amount is about $180 per year! This is more than I pay for the township roads ($128) which I actually use on a daily basis!
Okay, I know it’s past Thursday but I’m climbing on the soap box and giving another example of the awesomeness of 150. Today, at Kingman, not even two hours after the kids left the building, Illinois Water showed up and shut the water off!!! It’s to “change the water meter”. I guess that’s not something that could be done closer to the end of the week or maybe even next week. It had to be done today while the teachers were still in the building and trying to pack up their things so it all can be moved to new schools. It had to be done during a regularly scheduled work day for teachers. We don’t need water for something simple like flushing toilets or anything. Now, tomorrow is another regularly scheduled work day, the last one, for teachers. I found out the school was told the water would be off until late in the day…..TOMORROW. Thankfully, we have a friendly relationship with the church across the street so we will be making treks over there throughout the day again tomorrow. What a wonderful employer we have. Nothing like kicking somebody when they are already down.
I betcha they saved 10 or 15 dollars by doing it today.
Must be part of that $1.2 million they are going to save.