Late-term abortionist George Tiller was killed at his church Sunday morning in Wichita, Kansas. Tiller was a controversial figure in the abortion debate. He was one of the few doctors to perform late-term abortions, and had previously been the victim of attempts on his life.
No doubt the murderer feels justified in killing Tiller because of Tiller’s actions in killing unborn babies. But he’s not justified. I agree with President Obama’s reaction to the killing:
Today Obama said he was “shocked and outraged” by the killing. “However profound our differences as Americans over difficult issues such as abortion,” he said in a statement, “they cannot be resolved by heinous acts of violence.
My mother always taught me that two wrongs don’t make a right. Killing an abortionist is not a justified response to the scourge of abortion on demand in this country. I still have hope that abortion will be abolished through peaceful, legal means over time through persuasion, the way slavery was abolished in England.
I thoughtful, well-reasoned post. I hope we will see more of this from those on either side of this issue. I am not holding out much hope, though.
Difficult subject matter. Great post.
I think “terrorist” would be a more appropriate term than “murderer”.
This is so sad. That poor man will never again be able to deliver a baby half way, drive a spike into the back of its skull and throw it into a trash can to die. This is so unfair. What a great man he was. We should have a national period of mourning.
Difficult? It is irrational and hypocritical to suggest that killing a person is the same as killing a fetus. That fetus that is aborted has no memory, no family, no sense of identity; none of the things that make us persons. That Dr. who was murdered had friends, loved ones and that which makes us “civilized”, a history or memory.
If it is a religious issue, it is God’s job to judge, not man’s. If it is a science issue, then leave it to the scientists and if it is a legal issue, then respond legally.
What could have that Scott Roeder been thinking? That he was gonna get a free ticket to heaven? 72 virgins? Abortion is not murder, but what he did is.
Number 6: Thou shalt not murder.
CJ “scourge of abortion on demand” Scourge?
Etymology:
Middle English, from Anglo-French escorge, from escorger to whip, from Vulgar Latin *excorrigiare, from Latin ex- + corrigia thong, whip
Date:
13th century
1: whip ; especially : one used to inflict pain or punishment
2: an instrument of punishment or criticism
3: a cause of wide or great affliction
Great word, loaded with emotional content… but hardly appropriate. Who is afflicted by abortion? And before you say society, think about it. Society approves of it. Society, especially our society, is so creepy and puritan when it comes to sex, reproduction and nudity we have built huge industries around it. Advertising, entertainment, brothels, clothing and fashion, pornography, marriage, cosmetics…
What would another 1,200,000 unwanted children in this country be if not “a cause of wide affliction”?
http://missingchild.wordpress.com/2007/09/14/homicide-rates-in-the-us-infanticide/
Alas, kcdad, just when I thought perhaps we were soulmates….
What is “irrational and hypocritical” is saying that murder is only murder if the victim had friends, loved ones, and a memory. Murder is the ending of a life, no matter how old, no matter the circumstances. Would you consider it murder if the victim was a one-day-old newborn? Is he worthy of “personhood” because he might have a memory of yesterday? What about a person who has a memory but no friends or loved ones? Is it ok to take his life?
I can’t think of a better word than “scourge” for the millions of people (yes, people) that have been murdered by abortion in this country. You say they’re unwanted, but someone wants them. There is a long list of people waiting to adopt newborns in this country.
Who is afflicted? The fetus is afflicted (deprived of the opportunity to live a full life); his mother is afflicted by guilt and possibly health issues for the rest of her life; God is afflicted as we reject His gift of a new life; society is afflicted as we kill future citizens who could have offered great things. What if your mother had aborted you? We would be without your great insights and gifts. If society was a little more puritan about sex, there wouldn’t be so many abortions. Darn, I’d like to say more, but I have to get busy. Thank God my kids were not aborted!
Janel: Amen.
wacko: Agreed.
The guy who killed the doctor(?) did nothing but give the far left ammo.
Vonster – yeah but it was worth it.
Janel, the definition of murder includes the killing of a person. A person is defined by a sense of self which is learned over time through social interaction.
Murder is only murder if it is “The unlawful killing of another human being without justification or excuse,” or
in England: the “wilful killing of any subject whatever, with malice aforethought, whether the person slain shall be an Englishman or a foreigner. Russell says, murder is the killing of any person under the king’s peace, with malice prepense or aforethought, either express or implied by law. And Sir Edward Coke defines or rather describes this offence to be, ” when a person of sound mind and discretion, unlawfully killeth any reasonable creature in being, and under the king’s peace, with malice aforethought either express or implied,” or
“A person commits the crime of murder if with intent to cause the death of another person, he causes the death of that person or of another person,or under circumstances manifesting extreme indifference to human life, he recklessly engages in conduct which creates a grave risk of death to a person other than himself, and thereby causes the death of another person.”
Abortion simply is not murder.
This is one of the issues where each sides redefines words to suit their own purposes… just like Humpty Dumpty in Alice Through the Looking glass: “When I say a word it means exactly what I intend for it to mean and nothing else.”
Abortion is not murder. Shooting a man while ushering in a church service while his wife is in the choir loft is.
Perhaps you wish abortion was murder… I don’t why… because you think being a person means having a certain set of DNA… whatever. It certainly cheapens everything we do doesn’t it? What one does with their life is unimportant, we are human beings, not human doings. All life is precious…. except those living things we don’t think are precious… like Arabs or Illegal Immigrants or drug addicts, or thieves or politicians or doctors who perform abortions.
How can a fetus be even considered equal in stature with a REAL person? Is this a religious thing? If so, let God deal with it. God aborts enough lives on his own, to worry about what doctors do or don’t do.
Those of us you “pro-lifers” despise so much salute you for this latest expression of compassion and concern for human life. There’s nothing quite like watching your opponents do your job for you.
People of the State of California v. Scott Peterson (2004)
verdict: Scott Peterson was found guilty of 1st degree murder with special circumstances of Laci Peterson and second degree murder of the unborn fetus she was carrying. He was sentenced to death by lethal injection. His case is awaiting the automatic appeal to the California Supreme Court.
Not manslaughter. Not performing an abortion without a license. Second degree murder.
kcdad: “A person is defined by a sense of self which is learned over time through social interaction.”
Is that kcdad’s definition? Regardless, it’s insufficient, unless you believe it’s okay to also kill infants who have yet to learn a “sense of self,” whatever that means.
A person is a human being. Human life is sacred.
All: Please refrain from name-calling and profanity.
Kc, if that is the case than at what age or level do we attain your idea of being a “real human” or is it a sliding scale?? I guess by your definition my newborn daughter isn’t a real person, which is ridiculous. And based on their arguments and comments I thnk both KC and Anon are sick.
You can’t protect innocent human life by intentionally killing an innocent human life, that’s the bottom line.
CJ: sorry, won’t happen again!
I usually stay far away from these types of issues, the emotion and beliefs are too strong for anything to be settled through public discourse and I feel wholely unsuited intellectually to tell someone else whether their decision to abort is morally appropriate or not.
However, I have to disagree with kcdad’s statement that: “A person is defined by a sense of self which is learned over time through social interaction.” This would seem to relegate those who suffer from dementia, alzeihemer’s etc from being defined as a person when they lose their sense of self in addition to his intended purpose of preventing fetuses from being classified as such. So, once I lose my sense of self, it’s okay to end my life?
Peo Proud: “once I lose my sense of self, it’s okay to end my life?”
That’s the primary argument for legalization of assisted suicide. Once people can’t function well enough to have a “sense of self” (terminal illness, dementia, low quality of life, etc.) not only should they be allowed to end their lives, but the state of medical community should be allowed to assist them. Laws like that are easy once the value of life is cheapened or life has been redefined.
Did anyone see any of the Children’s Miracle Network telethon yesterday? How many of those children received life-saving treatment after premature birth (24+ weeks) or in infancy and were able to live and thrive? Would it have been better for all parties involved had those pregnancies been terminated?
Infrequent reader, good point — I hesitate to wade further into this discussion, because I’m not sure I can explain my thoughts well enough to explain my position but here goes —
I can support assisted suicide if I make the decision to end my life (obviously, I’m responsible for any moral issues associated with that) – but I don’t see how it fits on the other end of the life spectrum – since the individual (child/fetus/unborn – whatever term individuals prefer to use) doesn’t have the same choice. I don’t want my spouse determining when to end my life (unless in accordance with my stated and written desires)….
CJ,
I think England ended slavery less through persuasion and more through compensating slave owners for the loss of their slaves to freedom.
I doubt if the murderer thought Tiller’s death would end abortion, but it certainly ended Tiller’s ability to perform them.
Paul
Do any of you believe abortion is ever justified? If so, when?
A great deal of the ‘abortion’ question centers round ‘life.’ When does [human] life begin?
Biology = Sperm meets egg?
Philosophy = I think therefore I am [maybe].
Religion = Oh no………………
I wouldn’t use the word justified, but in circumstances where the life of the mother is in serious risk I am understanding. I wouldn’t force someone to put their life on the line like that.
Fetuses don’t have choice because they are incapable of choosing.
Human life is not sacred. No one thinks that. We kill human beings ALL the time. We allow them to starve to death, we allow them to live in disease and war torn lands. We send poor humans into war to fight for rich humans. We force others to work in unbearable conditions, including slavery so that others can get profit from their labor.
SOME human life may be sacred to SOME.
At what age does someone become a person? That is very good question. I don’t think I am capable of answering it.
I do love the rhetoric… “innocent human life”… innocent of what? How innocent is a fetus compared to a starving or neglected child?
Just because you might get a thrill out of seeing a newborn baby, doesn’t mean it is any more a “person” than a new born puppy. It also doesn’t mean it is any less “expendable” than Osama Bin Laden, Terri Schiavo, or my uncle who committed suicide because he was so crazy from being exposed to mustard gas in WWI. Our government has made it a part of foreign policy to assassinate enemy leaders.
http://www.serendipity.li/wot/gow1.htm
Human life isn’t sacred to YOU, you can only speak for yourself kc as much as you may want to control the brains of everyone else. That post was so scatter shot it barely made any sense, but at least you acknowledge that you do have some kind of sliding scale which judges others humanity. Knowing that, I can understand how you come to the conclusion you do.
I’ve come believe in choice, but that choice occurs BEFORE copulation, not after.
Do I think that there is a time when killing another human is justified? Yes. There are plenty of cases where it is. That said, I don’t think this is one of those cases.
11Bravo: your name is that of a soldier trained to kill other soldiers…. Doesn’t that bother you at all? How sacred is that enemy’s life? That enemy who has parents, perhaps and a spouse and children… perhaps even a soldier with no choice about being in the army… based on where and when he was born.
I am sorry this man was murdered. I am also sorry for all the unborn babies he killed.
IMHO life begins when sperm meets egg and becomes human and is endowed with a soul. My personal solution to abortion is don’t get pregnant in the first place if you are not prepared for the next 21 years of childhood. I speak with confidence as I had four children and raised ten. I figure that gives me a little room to talk. Also, there are no unwanted pregnancies among my children. I gave them the tools and the knowledge of how to prevent the problem. Both boys and girls.
I knew you would probably go down that road KC, which is fine but your point is still irrelevant. Since you have made past statements indicating that you were either in the military or were closely associated than you know that rules of engagement govern who to fire upon and in what situations to do so. As for whether or not they have a choice, they have a choice to surrender no one is going to force them to pull a trigger or point a muzzle at me. But all of these points are moot, because you are trying to say that killing someone is the same regardless of how it happens. If you believe that fine, but I doubt that most others would agree. If that were the case the woman who hits who a child who has run out in front of her car and is killed while trying to chase a ball is on the same level as Charles Manson or Adolf Hitler.
C.J. I have to say you’ve opened up the proverbial can of worms with this one. Interesting reading.
kcdad: Our disagreement about abortion boils down to the definition of personhood. I consider a person to be a living human being the moment God creates him in the womb, and you admit that you have no idea when a person becomes a person, but you’re sure that a baby (born or unborn) is not a person.
You say that calling a baby a person cheapens everything we do. I don’t see how the fact that a baby is a person (just like you are a person) “cheapens” your accomplishments in any way. You are a person who has done more in his life than a baby. A baby is a person with incredible potential to do amazing things in his life.
I believe life IS precious, even the life of the abortion doctor. The fact that God creates life is miraculous. Of course, people choose to act in ways that are neither sacred nor precious, but their very existence is still sacred.
11Bravo: “…killing someone is the same regardless of how it happens. ” It is the same. Dead is dead. Is someone who is accidentally killed any less dead? Oh, you are concerned about the killer… the one who survives… the one who is still alive… I thought your concern was for the “innocent baby” that is killed?
“life begins”… Life BEGAN once, a long time ago. Life CONTINUES today. Life does not begin anymore. There can be only one beginning. Life goes on with or without any individual part of it.
Long before the sperm meets egg both of those “seedlings” are alive.
A person begins when they begin to interact with their environment and develop a sense of self separate from others. As for your theology, Janel, your beliefs are fine, but if God is doing the creating in the womb, why are fathers paying child support? Why is God creating unwanted, unloved and unsurvivable babies? You seem to give a lot of concern for God, but if God were sovereign, then not only would miscarriages and stillbirths be blamed on God but so would abortions, birth defects, and unwanted, unloved and neglected children. (Why does God get credit for the successful pregnancies but not the failed ones?)
KC, how someone dies DOES matter to most of us because we believe that there is value in human life. If the death is accidental or “justified” that is one thing, but if the death is a result of irresponsibility or murder than we look upon those deaths differently because to do otherwise would lessen the value that MOST of us find in human life. Everyone else in this world and yourself will never agree on these points because you’ve already said you don’t find any value in human life so anything beyond that argument id really pointless.
As for the D150 stuff, there are about 1.2 billion D150 threads on this blog can’t you guys post in one of those??
If you’re looking for them, I moved the D150 comments to this post.
Pro-lifers mourn the loss of every life, even Tiller’s. Yet Tiller didn’t care a wit for all the lives he ended. It’s a paradox, isn’t it.
11Bravo: “If the death is accidental or “justified” that is one thing, “… right… justified by whom? YOU? Accidental… like an act of God? Is God accidental? Like a traffic “accident” where one person is not paying attention and the other is eating and talking on the phone while driving?
“you’ve already said you don’t find any value in human life” really? Did I? You want to show me where I said there is no value in human life?
You throw real nice platitudes around, but a quick analysis of your jargon indicates there is very little there.
Mouse: first of all, no pro-lifer is crying over Tiller’s death and secondly you have no right to speak to his care or lack of it for HIS PATIENTS. That’s right, the women were his patients. (Not the fetuses) What he may or may not have cared about the fetuses is IRRELEVANT!
kcdad: You asked why God doesn’t get the credit for failed pregnancies. I do give God credit for my pregnancy, even though it didn’t turn out the way I wanted it to. I don’t know why my baby wasn’t born alive, but I know that I can trust God to work all things together for good, ultimately. You asked why God creates unwanted, unloved babies. God created us with the necessary materials to make babies, and if we used those materials according to God’s perfect plan for families, babies WOULD be wanted and loved. People sin. We all do. It’s our fault, not God’s. You asked why fathers have to pay child support if God creates babies, and my answer is the same. God gave us the ability to reproduce (and what an amazing gift that is!), but if we choose to use that gift in ways that we know are wrong, we have to suffer the consequences. I believe that God is sovereign. You said “if God were sovereign…” so I assume that means that you don’t believe He is. You say that you are a follower of Christ. Can you follow Christ while not believing in God’s sovereignty?
Here is your quote, of course you can mince words here but this is your exact comment:
“Human life is not sacred. No one thinks that.”
And once again, when your intellectual ship is sinking you resort to attacking the argumentor instead of the argument:
“You throw real nice platitudes around, but a quick analysis of your jargon indicates there is very little there.”
Human life being valued and human life being sacred are two very different things.
If God were sovereign, there would be no need for concepts like sin and evil, would there? All things would work for the good of God… but they don’t, do they? Or do they? Perhaps it is only our vanity that thinks we could do anything contrary to God’s will. Perhaps abortion is as much a part of God’s will as miscarriages, State executions and war.
I believe life is as important or unimportant, valuable or worthless as we make it.
From strictly a physics stand point, there is nothing inherently special about anyone’s existence… we are a accumulation of matter and energy, that before we are and after we are not, still exists in some other form.
“It’s our fault, not God’s. ”
What is our fault? Being human? Who created us the way we are?
So kc you are okay with taking responsibility for any act taken by your children then?
And follow up to your physics lecture, why do you bother to get up in the morning kc? Why do you post on here? When you break it down to the basics in your universe none of that should matter either but you still do it, why?
kcdad, I meant that it’s our fault that we choose to sin, not God’s.
kcdad: From strictly a physics standpoint, we are an accumulation of matter and energy. Thank God there’s more to life than physics. We are also thinking, feeling beings with minds and souls. Yes, there is sin and evil in the world, but it wasn’t that way when God created it. He gave us the freedom to make our own choices, and we choose badly. That doesn’t make God any less sovereign.
So is it true that you consider yourself a Christ-follower who does not believe that God is sovereign or that life is sacred?
It’s obvious he didn’t care about the BABIES he killed, Kcdad, who “his patients” were is IRRELEVANT. To focus on “patients” is like giving a contract killer a pass because he was just killing for his client.
so many starving children… starving for love, food, education, recognition of their unique gifts.
I hate abortion but I also hate to see children neglected, uneducated, and abused.
Drs. such as Tiller have made a choice that they believe will make the world a better place despite the risks to their personal safety. Some might call him a hero. Others use the term Murderer. Who is to decide? You? I do not believe that Dr. Tiller did not care for these babies. He knew that “caring” was not adequate.
I believe that each individual must make CHOICEs – this includes parents and their doctors. I do not believe that fetuses can make a choice.
Unless each and every one of us is willing to take in and feed and care for and educate ANY unwanted child – despite their disabilities – we should get down off our high horse of morality.
Remember the two parents recently charged with neglecting their baby? They left him in a car seat to suffer and starve to death. Was this a better choice than abortion for this sweet baby? Could this child have decided what was best for him?
I don’t understand why this needs to be a public debate. Each situation is unique.
Tulip: You’re right that fetuses can’t make a choice, and that’s why I think it’s such a tragedy to kill them. The ones who should be making a choice are the adults, and it should be made BEFORE copulation, as anon e. mouse said. I don’t mean to seem like I’m on a high horse of morality; I just feel strongly about protecting the babies who can’t defend themselves.
Will you feed, nurture, and educate them?
If not you, who?
I’m feeding, nurturing, and educating the two I adopted. There’s a long list of people waiting to adopt the rest.
“So kc you are okay with taking responsibility for any act taken by your children then?” Underage children? Yes.
Janel: “You cannot slander human nature; it is worse than words can paint it.”
– Charles Haddon Spurgeon”
This is the problem with that “sin” concept. It is hateful and self deprecating to the point of meaninglessness.
People don’t choose to sin. They choose to survive the best way they can. They do what ever they feel they have to to get (I wrote to to) through the day.
“Thank God there’s more to life than physics.” NO!!! You should thank your parents and friends that there is more to life… for many people in the history of the world there never was more than physics. They were born for no reason other than to die from disease and starvation or victims of war or nature.
Mouse: “giving a contract killer a pass because he was just killing for his client” THAT is exactly what it is like… or giving a soldier a pass because he is killing for his government.
So why not instead go kill the mothers who are having abortions? Why not kill that bimbo in California with 16 kids after artificially inseminating 8 fetuses?