The Cato Institute, a non-profit public policy research foundation headquartered in Washington, D.C., takes a look at the President’s health care town hall meeting that was broadcast on ABC recently:
With the nationalization of some of our largest companies, the recently-passed Waxman-Markey bill, and Obama’s health care proposal, it sounds like we’re well on our way to socialism in America, and I’m not throwing that term out lightly. How else can it be described?
By libertarians and conservatives, there is no other way to describe it. Their vocabulary seems to be stunted. But then that’s all they’ve been saying since January 21. Can we invade Iraq again?
Hmmm, a libertarian think tank surprisingly questions a health care plan that involves the government. The government’s controlling interest in GM is seemingly unprecedented – one would think that never before in times of crises has the government nationalized a private company, never to allow it to return to the private sector. (Ok, you got me on Amtrak – pity that there is no way it could run profitably without government assistance). Cap and trade will seemingly be a disaster, just like it was in 1990 in reducing acid rain. Suddenly, “we’re well on our way to socialism in America”!!!
Oh, I wish for the good old days of the past eight years of continued deregulation, less government involvement (except when making war, of course), when private markets brought us to a near collapse of the world financial economic system.
How else can it be described? How about a reversal of the past eight years of mistakes?
Themis — You’re barking up the wrong tree. I have no love lost for Bush. He signed a $787 billion bailout before he left office.
And here’s a standard definition of socialism, regardless of one’s political persuasion:
Jon is unwittingly making my point for me. Look at all the nationalization and bailouts that have occurred in the past 100 years. This is only the latest and most expensive in a long string of them since the Federal Reserve System was established. Have these actions not resulted in the gradual transfer of more and more control to the government?
CJ, if I look at those nationalizations of businesses in the past 100 years, didn’t they all get returned to the private sector (excepted Amtrak) – just as Obama is saying now? Isn’t this just the typical ebb and flow between more government and less government? I’d say we have a long ways to go before socialism.
Themis: Setting aside asshat neocons who call themselves “libertarians at heart” you will not find many people of the libertarian bent clamoring to invade Iran.
And this small-L libertarian favors the following: Either illegalize all health insurance or provide government paid insurance for everyone, with controls over costs.
Government provided insurance for all citizens – sounds like socialism lite to me. It would destroy all private insurance companies talk about wielding a big stick. Government should not be decider of winners or losers in any sector.
Private health insurance companies are the winners, PC, NOT the patients nor the doctors. Doctors and hospitals have been turned into nothing but businesses because of those glorious health insurance companies. I see the downfall finally came with HMOs.
Call it what you will, but capitalism is NOT the be-all end-all and government is not always Satan. Unless of course you want to get rid of the military and hand it ALL over to Halliburton & Co. and pay out the wazzoo, get rid of the police, the courts, the fire departments, the parks, etc. Your theory seems to be “if it’s broke, don’t let the government fix it!” See, this is not soviet Russia nor communist China. We are a demcracy, The PEOPLE voted for change and damn it, things better change! (Oh crap, I always forget about the power of the lobbyists.)
You can define ‘socialism’ all you want. That still doesn’t make it a dirty word. I happen to cherish my child and grandchild and want to see a better future for them than what has been layed at their feet. CILCO and ILAWC have already asked (announced) a rate increase. Which would you prefer, the status quo of their unsubstantiated rate increases forever, or to pay $175/year more to reduce our dependence on foreign oil and create new jobs to boot? Cap and Trade is a horrible name for this policy. It should rather be called Energy Freedom.
The ;ong-term brainwashing sure runs deep from Fox News and their pure capitalistic bent. And before you all complain and groan, which cable news do you watch and have you watched for the past 15 years?
(And PP, I never mentioned Iran. I mentioned Iraq because I never heard a single word from the right the past 8 years over anything Bush & Co. did, despite CJ’s little statement above.)
Oh, and CJ, wasn’t the Fed Reserve created so that these kind of bank failures and economic collapses would NOT happen? That’s what happens when you ‘privatize’ the monetary system. So much for all that privatization!
I still don’t understand why American’s are having this conversation. The American health care system is broken. Those who work in the health care profession will tell you, those who have lost their homes and filed bankruptcy will tell you. It’s broken. Those who continue to advocate the status quo or “minimal” changes are either working for private insurance, big pharma or have never had a significant medical emergency. We practice “socialism” in nearly every other sector of our lives…fire proctection, police protection, streets and sanitation, water, schools. Single payer healthcare will not be the demise of our country…not doing something about the current situation WILL be.
I have children whose medical care costs more than $300,000 per year…and that’s just for their medicine. Who sets the price for their medicine? Pharma and insurance. The system is broken and ruining families every single day.
Further, we already support single payer health care for the sick, the elderly and the government. Medicaid and Medicare are good programs but because they must function within the “private” insurance arena we see inequities. It is a MYTH that our health care is the greatest in the world. An absolute MYTH.
Single payer health care should be accessible to everyone.
It’s only the greatest health care system in the world if you have LOTS of money.
The Federal Reserve is not privatized banking. We have had privatized banking before and it was a disaster.
Mahkno: Than what is the Federal Reserve? A central bank?
Mahkno… what would you call the Fed? A small “unknown” cabal of bankers with ONE government official overseeing them… who, by the way, is appointed from a list given to the President BY THE FEDERAL RESERVE BANKERS!
It is privatized CENTRAL banking. Before we had individual banks and communities issuing currency backed by the capital of those institutions, now we have currency being issued, backed by NOTHING, except someone else’s promise to back it. (The Federal Reserve prints it and the Government backs it )
The health care system has been broken since they put accountants in charge of the hospitals and health care instead of the doctors. I had some friends, 30 years ago in Osteopathy, that were complaining about it then…
It is all about money… surprise surprise surprise… this is America after all.
Kcdad… the Federal Reserve is a part of the federal government. It was created by legislation and can be dissolved by legislation. The Federal Reserve chairmen and the various governors are all appointed positions. The President can appoint whomever he likes to these positions but does receive recommendations. It is a vitally important position that demands a real professional that is best not left to petty politics. The reserve is semi autonomous along a similar vein as the Post Office precisely to minimize politics. Obviously current events are highly charged. Bernanke is hardly the first person to be in the hot seat. Paul Volker comes to mind… the most important decision Carter made and it cost him the election.
The concept of a central national bank was highly controversial in the early 20th century when the Fed was created. The issue goes all the way back to the founding fathers.
(there was a really good long multi page article in the WSJ (or maybe the FT, I read both) giving a good history of all this but I can’t find it online… yet)
The Great Society programs have continued to haunt the American public and the health care system.
Themis : google federal reserve act and read who passed and signed into law the Act which created the system.
I wasn’t going to write on this issue, however i need to . I was uninsured for a few yrs. I was very lucky to get into Heartland Clinic , this clinic saved my life and i was asked to serve on the Board of Dirs. I have been on the Board for over 9 yrs. I have got to meet Congressman La Hood , State Senators etc… I am a voice who has been up close and personal. They get it and really do care.When you see people who have to put off health, due money , its very scary. I just had double knee operation seven months ago. I had to wait till i turned65..No person should have to live in pain that long. I went from a cane to a walker, now i’m off and back on my feet .. Am i bitter, no i got to see how the health system works.. The biggest problem with health care in the U.S. is people who abuse their medical cards and go to E.R. for every little pain and run the bill sky high…A lot of people put our lawmakers down, i have watched how they cross party lines to do what is best for us all.I’m very proud of the work that this Clinic has done .. Its for all walks of life..I’m very glad to have been a part of this ..Our new Congressman Aaron Schock has also helped the clinic a lot .. I wish we could find common ground on this issue, they all care and get it .. In the end we need to find owership of our health care .. Read you Ins, understand it . The DRS. will work with you , the hospitals will work with you if you explain it to them.Do you need that test?Ask the price..
Doesn’t the government – ie the Treasury print the bills? Then the Treasury delivers it to the Federal Reserve? So that the Federal Reserve can then lend it back to the government and charge interest? Mahnko — reading a book entitled: The Creature From Jekyll Island will give you an overview of the Federal Reserve. It is a cartel of bankers who gathered to gether with Sen. Aldrich to make money on the backs of Joe and Jane Citizen. I agree with kcdad on this issue. The group which holds the purse strings — usually calls the shots.
Momma Hen: You are oh so correct about the abuse of the ER room — that is where one of the challenges would need to be resolved.
Ms. Hen says people should read and understand their insurance…uh, what about the uninsured. Many people who don’t have insurance have no choice BUT to use the E.R.
I hate to weigh in on these money issues because I know that I always tilt toward the ideal–looking for the ethical rather than the fiscally sound. I don’t want to see anyone go without health care, but I believe our current system is most unfair to the working poor or even the working middle class with no insurance. I truly do not know how to make it right, but there just must be a way. Also, if everyone had insurance, wouldn’t that be cheaper than the high cost of the uninsured using ER as their primary care?
In a conversation the other day, someone shared that if everyone had health insurance, the system would implode because there would not be enough trained and certified medical staff to provide for all Americans. Any way to statistically or otherwise verify that assertion? (I realize that statistics can be maninpulated to prove/disprove just about any point.)
If that is the case (and it well might be), we have a real ethical problem don’t we? Considering that we brag to the rest of the world that we are a humane society, how should we decide who gets health care and who does not–who dies too early a death and who does not? If there were a need–and, therefore, more jobs available in the medical field, would moire people choose the field? I know that we all love our pets–I love mine, but I am often appalled at how much people are willing to pay on the care of their pets–yet would be unwilling to contribute to the care of humanbeings who are less fortunate.
Karrie:
Look at all the countries that have health insurance for all such as Gr Britain or Canada
They have to ration care because ther is not enough to go around, you still have people who will get less in a equal access to health care situation.
If every other person was a doctor or a nurse maybe we could self diagnose and treat our selves and avoid the pitfalls of our current or future system
The big push, in my humble view, is the one that is going to try and make healthcare a right on the level of the first or second amendment.
PC–Do you have the right to have healthcare? Do you have a spouse or children? If so, how did you/they get that right? I know I have been given that “right,” so far. I just don’t understand why some of us “deserve” the right and others, especially the working poor, don’t. Certainly, I can accept the idea that some will have better health care than others do? I am sure that there are people who have much better coverage than I do right now but I don’t begrudge them their “Cadillac” plans.
Rix,
People who are without health plans are taken care of … You the people who have Ins . pay for the people who don’t have Ins. This issue is like a dog chaseing its tail..People who have medical cards can go see a Dr. or a clinic. The people that get the very health care in the U.S. , are the poor and the rich .. When i was a young girl, there was the rich and the very poor, now we have the poor, working class poor,middle class poor and the rich. …. You should all be upset with the Ins. companys who chargeing you more and more . Stop the E.R. stuff and make the people with medical cards quit abuseing the system..
Sharon: I have the liberty to seek out an insurance plan that is affordable to me and my family members.
Some times it is provided by my employer and sometimes it is purchased on the market. Either way it is a service that is provide by some third party for a premium.
There is no “right” to this arraingement it is the operation of the market. When we say something is a “right” it takes on a peculiar (special) understanding.
Having a right to medical services and care is one which cannot be abridged by government action, such as the right to free speech. The govt (any level) cannot lessen or infringe upon that ability to speak your mind.
But a right to medical care and procedures (outside the emergency room situation) is one that cannot be distributed equally to every citizen.
If everybody went to the doctor or clinic and demanded a flu shot , everybody would not be given a flu shot, there is not enough serum to be distributed on a given day week or month. Some will get them many will not. Rationing will then be in play. You cannot ration a right.
You can demand an MRI test but your not necessarily going to get one when you want it.
Going to the emergency room for emergency care is a close cousin of the right to a medical service or procedure but this is an excepted practice or maybe a law that allows those who need care to be seen and not be turned away due to a lack of insurance coverage.
Link to Emergency medical treatment act.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_Medical_Treatment_and_Active_Labor_Act
“try and make healthcare a right on the level of the first or second amendment.”
I would trade my guns in order to be able to afford to see a doctor or dentist without involving an insurance company… any day. As it is, I need the gun just to be able to get past the red tape involving whether or not the doctor will even see a new patient…
please note the definition of emergency ” the individual’s health [or the health of an unborn child] in serious jeopardy, serious impairment to bodily functions, or serious dysfunction of bodily organs”…
So… you are walking down the street and are mugged, beaten and robbed… a doctor, or hospital may in all good conscious walk by on the other side if street.
Everyone’s health is in serious jeopardy… we are all going to die. Only the rich get to live and die comfortably. Because they “deserve” it.
MAMA HEN… Insurance pays for health care? What business are you in? Insurance pays for nothing but insurance people’s salaries. People pay for health care. Insurance is the second biggest scam in this country. Get 100 people to pay you each $100, and you promise to pay out $1000 or $10,000 or even $100,000 to each… sounds a lot like what Madoff and Standford have been indicted for.
Mahkno: “the Federal Reserve is a part of the federal government.” Yeah, and so is The United States Post Office… and Federal Express… and the Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corporation. Just because the are called “federal” doesn’t make them a part of the government. There is no oversight and there is no obligation except on the part of the government TO the Fed.
You just couldn’t be more wrong. (Even Bush, in his ignorance was aware of the Fed’s “independence”. Remember in his speech appointing a new chairman to the Reserve he said how important it was to have someone independent from the government in charge? The person chosen came from a list prepared BY THE FEDERAL RESERVE and submitted to the President. )
Precinct Committeeman: “They have to ration care because…”
Why do we ration it? Is it really scarce? How is that possible.
doctors per thousand of population
5.91 cuba
4.25 russia
3.4 germany
3.25 lebanon
2.1 canada
United States? 2.3
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_phy_per_1000_peo-physicians-per-1-000-people
What is it about North America that makes being a doctor so … rare?
PC, I agree that all people aren’t going to have the “privilege,” (as opposed to “right”), of having the same quality of insurance coverage. However, there must be a way to make basic coverage affordable for all or, at least, for a larger group of Americans. In this country, we have decided that every child has a “right” or “privilege” (whatever label you choose to give) to have access to an education through high school at the expense of the taxpayer. There are many Americans who are not satisfied with this “free” education for their children and, also, have enough money to choose a more expensive education in private schools. Is there any chance that insurance coverage could follow the same plan–basic coverage to all and added coverage to those who can afford it?
Kcdad , I did not know a hospital can walk by a mugged person.
When you have limited resources, equipment , personell, or facilities everyone can not be seen at the same time or even in a small range of time.
If all want to be given a flu shot there is not enough serum to go around (my previous example) you have to sett some form of rationing to get the shots to the most in need.
This not just about doctors , the staff at a facility is many times larger than a doctor who examines a patient. (nurses, nurses aides, med techs, etc.
Sharon : the way to make insurance cheaper/ more affordable is to use large subscriber populations. The larger the population that pays in to a plan the risk is spread out over a bigger sector. Insurance companies like big populations of payers.
I think if everybody in the USA was paying into an insurance plan the cost would go down for many , it would be an increase for those who do not pay now.
The quality of coverage would be the question that has to be examined.
But now you are back to a single payer system. No alternative plans from competing companies. When you have single payer you have no more choice.
Am I wrong in assuming that perscription drugs (and their availability at reduced cost) would be one of the most expensive factors in offering national health insurance? Which is more costly: medical procedures or drugs? Just asking some questions? As far as the quality of care is concerned, aren’t many of the procedures very routine? Not all procedures require specialists, do they? I’m thinking that more doctors than necessary tend to become specialists. I am just thinking out loud–my basic ignorance on the subject will be apparent.
I just want the same excellent health care our Senators and Congressmen/women get. Oh, it is provided by the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. Gee. If it is good enough for them, then it’s good enough for me.
PC: “When you have limited resources, equipment , personell, or facilities everyone can not be seen at the same time or even in a small range of time. ”
This from the country of NASA, CIA and the most advanced military industrial complex in the history of the world? What limited resources are you talking about?
I think the only thing limited is our imaginations and priorities.
If 300 million people all traveled to the nearest medical facitility/ hospital on a given day, nobody except those who actually got in the door would be seen before sun down ( for the most minor of ailments)
If the residents of the City of Peoria all went to the 3 hospitals very few would be seen and treated. It is a matterof space, resources, staff and treatments.
EM: run for Congress and your dream will come true. I know of a Congressional seat that would be right up your alley. ( in 2010)
The current occupant is young and hard working but can be beaten by a mature head on straight civil servant such as yourself.
Kcdad,
I said you should be upset with the Ins. company WHO CHARGE YOU MORE… You and others are paying for the people who have no Ins. The premins keep going up and up . People on Medicare must have a supplement. Then you must have a part D, that helps with your meds , then when you meet a dounut hole until next yr, you pay more ..Like i said, its like a dog chaseing its tail.
PC: I didn’t realize there was a limit or ban on having more medical facilities and more doctors.
In that case, you are absolutely correct. We should let all of the poor, uneducated people just keep dying from neglect and keep all the worthy people alive. We can always get cheap labor (to do the dirty jobs) from Mexico.
I have no insurance. I don’t believe in the whole ponzi scheme. Insurance people are parasites.
How man times have you read about a situation where the insuranc company refuses to insure someone because (in the case of auto insurance) they had had (I just wrote “had had”) a good driving record and were “due” for an accident? How many times like during floods or hurricanes have insurance companies just gone belly up , taken their money and declared bankruptcy? State Farm got into big trouble for doing just that with older drivers here in Illinois, and many with insurance did not get compensated after Katrina. Earthquake insurance, in California, is another of the scams… it only kicks in if in the case of a major devastating earthquake, and in that case, the company can’t possibly pay off anyone. Take life insurance… it is a giant roulette wheel scam about leaving a boat load of case to your family after you die… in 30 or 60 years…an amount of money that may or may not be worth anything close to what t was when you took out the policy.
Insurance… what an organized crime racket.
PC: Imagine 300,000,000 filing a claim on the insurance at the same moment, PC. Imagine 300 million people all flushing toilets at the same time, imagine 300 million jumping up at the same time, imagine 300,000,00o doing anything together… play your silly status quo games some place else.
There is no ban. However people who no Ins. need to educate theirselves on Where to get help,People don’t have to die. Some people choose to be homeless, Why? i don’t know. But they can get health care, if they look within their community. In Peoria, there is a lot of places that reach out , some people don’t get the paper, some people really DON’T know where to go.. The bottom line people don’t have to die..
Must have hit a nerve.
Why don’t you ask them why they chose to be homeless?
I am not talking of the homeless. I am talking about the working poor. There is no medical or dental care for them. (there doesn’t need to be because there are always immigrants to fill their jobs when they get sick and die) There are always plenty of working poor to fill those paycheck to paycheck jobs.
And yes, Mamma Hen, people do have to die. It is a law of nature.
Status Quo games – what would that be?
300 million people doing some at the same time—- breathing, sleeping, watching some type of entertainment, performing work, there are a number of things we all do at the same time, but getting to a doctor or health facility is not one of them. We all can’t go to the local Dairy Queen either.
PC: If people believed that all the people in America would go to a Dairy Queen every day, there would be more Dairy Queens–one on every corner, sort of like McDonalds or Walgreen’s. I guess the “law” of supply and demand doesn’t apply to health care.
The law of supply and demand most certainly applies to healthcare. What do you mean Sharon?