Here’s an e-mail exchange I had recently with the City’s attorney, Randy Ray:
First e-mail to Mr. Ray
Hi Randy,
Upon reading the municipal code, Sec. 3-11, it would appear to me that Big Al’s could not get a liquor license at the proposed Jefferson Street location because it’s within 100 feet of a licensed day care facility. Is that not the case? If so, why did the Liquor Commission approve it? If not, why not?
Thanks for your help,
C. J. Summers
Response from Mr. Ray:
C.J.,
The day care center is approx. 164 feet from the property line of the proposed site. The day care lease is for specific rooms within the building. Lessee has no rights to the bus area or any other common area.
Randy
Second e-mail to Mr. Ray:
Thanks, Randy.
The ordinance states, “In the case of a church, the distance of 100 feet shall be measured to the nearest part of any building used for worship services or educational programs and not to property boundaries. In all other cases, the measurement shall be made in a straight line, without regard to intervening structures or objects, from the property line of school, hospital, home of the aged or indigent persons, nursing home or homes for veterans or their spouses or children or any military or naval stations, any daycare facility licensed by the Illinois Department of Children and Family Services, or any publicly owned housing development containing 200 or more housing units.”
The CityLink bus transfer center is all one parcel, and there’s one property line around the entire site. What’s the warrant (from the city code) for defining “property line” the way you described — as only those specific rooms within the building that are being used by the daycare? Elsewhere (for instance, 28-2), the code defines “property line” as “the line marking the boundary between any street and the private property abutting thereon.” I don’t see anywhere in the code where “property line” ever refers to the boundaries of leased office space within a parcel.
Thanks for your help,
C. J. Summers
No response yet from Mr. Ray. I’ll update this post when I hear back.
CJ – Surely you are not arguing that the “property line” of Maya’s daycare is the property line for the bus terminal. What reasonable person or entity would ever define it in that way? She surely doesn’t heat it, pay taxes, has no legal conveyance or say so over it whatsoever. There is nothing, other than your far-reaching interpretation of this ordinance (of which is clearly your interpretation & subject to debate) that could possibly suggest that the property line for Maya’s daycare is the property boundary of the bus terminal. You are damaging your substantial credibility on this one. We should also be clear that the daycare originatedafterSwingers World – clear and convincing evidence that this sudden pre-occupation with perceived child endangerment is politically motivated. No one is buying otherwise.
Curious — I’m not arguing the reasonableness of the law, but the letter of the law. I totally agree with Ray’s statement that “The day care lease is for specific rooms within the building. Lessee has no rights to the bus area or any other common area.” But the problem is that the ordinance does not say “the property line for purposes of measurement extends from the edge of the specific room leased within the building.” In fact, this specific ordinance doesn’t define “property line” at all. However, elsewhere in the city code, “property line” is defined, and going by that definition, I believe locating Big Al’s next to the bus terminal would be in violation of the ordinance. I don’t consider this a “far-reaching interpretation,” although I freely admit it’s my interpretation and subject to debate. If there’s no standard definition of “property line” in the city’s ordinances, how can they be enforced equally? What would prohibit the City from defining it one way in this case, and more strictly in another case (as they did with Elliott’s up on University)? I’m just asking for a little consistency.
And I’m not buying the argument that, because Swinger’s World was there when she moved in, she now can not oppose any other adult use business from locating near her business. The increased concentration of adult-use businesses around her business is a legitimate concern.
There seems to be a great many responses to this issue on Big Al’s building a site on the parking lot behind the bus terminal. I drove by there just to see where Myah’s was in reference to Swingers World, because there seems to be a great deal of talk about the center having moved in with SW nearby. The daycare is located right off the corner of Adams St and Kumph Blvd, Swingers World is a block away right off on the corner of Harrison and Adams St. much more than 164 ft from the entrance of the center. Additionally, parents access this center directly from the an entryway located within the bus terminal, as well as the main entrance located on Adams Street. Now the way I see it is that yes Swingers World is located in the next block , however, the families bringing children to the center are nowhere near the SW site. Although SW is considered an adult entertainment business, I don’t believe they have a liquor license or strippers. I can see the concern with Big Al’s being located in such close proximity to the child care center especially since they will be open during the early part of the day in which the center is also open.
I am not for or against Big Al’s relocation, however, I am concerened with the impact of having a adult strip bar adjacent to a childcare center, as well as across the street from the Civic Center where many family type entertainment functions go on . There just seems like there has got to be a better location for the club outside of it being near a church, or a childcare center. Personally, I inquired and have heard very positive things about this center which by the way use to be the YWCA Childcare Center, however, I would not take my child there or to any center that was located that close to a strip club.
This appears to be a very delicate matter in which the city wants to move forward with a hotel deal, Big Al needs to move in order to make room for the hotel, and this daycare center is caught in the middle of this whole mess.
Swinger’s World doesn’t have a license to sell booze and hasn’t come into conflict with Sec. 3-11. However, Big Al’s wants to be able to sell booze. I’d be interested to see Mr. Ray’s response, since it looks like the ordinance doesn’t allow for Big Al’s to sell booze at the Jefferson Street location.
“I am not for or against Big Al’s relocation, however, I am concerened with the impact of having a adult strip bar adjacent to a childcare center, as well as across the street from the Civic Center where many family type entertainment functions go on “
Question to “as a parent” – Did you ever feel any concern about Big Al’s being on a parade route where thousands of childrens were in attendance?
Response to Question
I have not attended a parade in downtown Peoria since my children were small, and therefore I do not keep up with the parade routes. However to that point, I would think if a parent were taking their child to a parade and the route included passing by Big Al’s it would be up to that parent if the location of Al’s club is where they wanted to stand and observe the parade. Now no disrespect to you “Question”, but there is no comparison of a parade passing by and a permanent structure of the “strip club” building in the back of a childcare center. Can you expound better on the point you are trying to make?
I think the point is obvious. Big Al’s has been in a highly visible location for over 30 years with thousands of children passing by it every day and to my knowlege no one has ever raised a single objection. The sudden concern over its profile seems at best, disingenuous. Whether or not you and your children currently attend the many parades in downtown Peoria, is, for purposes of this conversation, irrelevant.
“Big Al’s has been in a highly visible location for over 30 years with thousands of children passing by it every day”
Do you really you think we will buy that snake oil?
It is located on a block that has held nothing but night clubs and bars for 30 years. Where are all these children coming from and going to that walk by it every day? (You didn’t mean the under aged girls working there, did you?)
“Question to “as a parent” – Did you ever feel any concern about Big Al’s being on a parade route where thousands of childrens were in attendance?”
Answer to financially interested party:
Was Big Als EVER open during one of these parades?
The issue is the liquor ordinance. But hey just do what ever they want,where ever they want the ordinance and laws are there for a purpose. Heck, I remember the city spent big bucks to keep Hooters out of riverfront village. As for Big Al’s put them where ever long as they meet all of the legal and ordinance requirements for location. The old Cubs on Knoxville would be fine But I dont think it could.
I proposed locating Big Al’s at GEM Terrace in East Peoria.
100 feet or 164 feet. Big deal. CJ, I hope if you get elected, you don’t nitpick over every bit of legalese about all ordinances at council meetings or the already laborious nature of them will get abhoredly lengthier than they are now. To my point, while one understands some of the do gooders’ morals based arguements about this proposed move, especially concerning the daycare center and Mission, can’t we just give Mr. Zuccarini a break on this one based on his clean legal track record in this city? Does this not stand for anything? I caught a view of his proposed design of the building he would erect there, and it looks very understated and actually fits the motif of the CityLink Transit Center. I believe he’s really trying to make an effort to fit in. Can’t we just give this guy a break and move on? The police station would be close, there’s an off duty moonlighting cop on duty all the time while the terminal is open. What more does everyone want? Geez, some common sense, instead of all the grandstanding for a change of pace….plleeeaaazzzee!!!
“100 feet or 164 feet. Big deal. CJ, I hope if you get elected, you don’t nitpick over every bit of legalese about all ordinances”
Outsidethebox, you should have run for council. You’d fit in perfectly with this outlook.
Why even have all this pesky “legalese”? It just gets in the way, doesn’t it?
outsidethebox…. really?
64ft — seems like a ‘variance’ might be in order?
Oh well, enough connections,enough money, a lawyer and do want you want!
Love the foodchain order of things — flexible at the top and squashed at the bottom, sounds like the same groupthink that continues to level Peoria down to a lower level of sewer.
Glad to see more discussion on the topic, but Monday’s liquor commission meeting was not so much about proximities as about whether to define the day care center as a “school.” The meeting was also clearly worse than a farce, (I personally define it as psychotic) in part because the Commission clearly stated that they didn’t really want public input anyway but were just going thru the motions because the law said they had to. Just after I finished speaking on the topic of the impact on bus customers, the attorneys pretended that nobody had even addressed anything but the day care issue. And oh, yes, Phil Luciano has clearly never even ridden a bus.
C.J.– Randy Ray isn’t even handling the issue. You need to be writing to Sonni Williams. Even though CityLink is a service or the City, she has taken it upon herself to take sides against her employers (the City and the taxpayers)in favor of an outside…business…?
As a sometimes bus rider, like when my cars are buried under 2 feet of snow behind a 3 1/2 ridge the snow plows made,I’d really like to be able to make the hike from City Hall after Council meetings to my ride without having to go past alleyways where guys are relieving themselves after a few too many. Yes, I said that. It happens. Besides the word on the street, it even hits the police news. THAT, folks, is the difference between a liquor license (proposed) and the existing facility.
Now, as for the elephant in the room–organized crime needs to be addressed, here. Somebody…? Besides the superficial content of the discussion, anyone who bothers themselves to go watch how these people interact and behave should be able to discern that there are some hidden agendas and greater issues. Deals have already been made, and most of it isn’t even being overtly discussed. It’s going to take either a supenatural force or an organized movement, or both, to stop it.
Can we please get the other candidates to weigh in on the location issue? I’ve spent the past couple of hours trying to get contact information, and it isn’t easy to find.
And is anyone even willing to revisit the question of the $37 million gift for the WonderProject and what happens if it does fail, anyway?
Peg, did you ever get back your two cars, jet ski and lawn furniture that those vicious officers from the Zoning Department stole from you? All part of that organized crime ring, I’ll bet! Terrible. Just terrible.
None of you seem to be thinking about how convenient this will be for the strippers. They can drop their kids off at the daycare then walk 164 feet to work. Why should they be inconvenienced by us prudes?!
“Outsidethebox” asks, “can’t we just give Mr. Zuccarini a break on this one…?”
The short answer is the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution. But I’d like to point out some of the “breaks” Mr. Zuccarini already enjoys:
Mr. Zuccarini currently enjoys grandfathered-in status which allows him to operate practically next door to a church. The City Council recently amended that ordinance to allow Mr. Zuccarini to extend that grandfathered-in status to practically anywhere in Peoria.
Furthermore, Mr. Zuccarini will get $11 million for his approximately half-acre property holdings on Main St. (a price the City of Peoria taxpayers are helping to fund with their $37 million gift to Gary Matthews). Yet despite this going rate for downtown property, the City is also willing to sell Mr. Zuccarini approximately one and a half acres of City-owned land nearby for a mere $400,000.
Personally, I think Mr. Zuccarini has gotten more than his fair share of “breaks.” I don’t think it’s unfair nor unreasonable to require that Mr. Zuccarini find a new location that complies with the liquor ordinance, just like every other liquor license owner with a “clean legal track record” in Peoria.
How many feet is it from this side of the river to the other? Maybe Al can take his strip club across the river and open up next to the casino. I was cracking on this issue before reading Emerge’s blog about how hard Ms. Costic has worked to build up her daycare – and how the strip club might affect her business. Although I don’t think any strip club is capable of bringing down Ms. Costic’s daycare, I must say I’m in her corner. Further, I imaging that if any strippers DID try to drop their kids off at Ms. Costic’s daycare, they’d find themselves reformed real quick.
Further, I guess the most biblical way to look at it: if you wouldn’t want it built right next to your house, how can you stand for it being built anywhere.
???
$11 million for a lot worth $400,000? Man, that is a really sweet deal. Al must be one hell of a negotiator.
Adkinsdutro, Your comments about the strippers being “reformed” are out of line. I would say that probably none of those ladies started out in life with aspirations to become “exotic dancers”. Like so many people in our society, they do what they do to survive. Most people who work in that segment of society which caters to the baser instincts immediately get defensive and justify themselves if you try to say otherwise, or at least that was my experience in my younger days when I did frequent such places. Nowadays, I simply acknowledge the industry for what it is and realize that if people did not frequent places like Big Al’s or Swinger’s World or Brown Bag video, they would not exist. Business is business. It responds to the consumers.
Fred: Does the baser instinct economy and employment opportunities have an equal seat at the table in a community?
Do these transitional stations in life have equal standing in our social structure?
True, Fred. I was speaking more to Costic’s strength as a person than to the stripper’s propensity to (or not to) be reformed. It is interesting how all of that works amid the economics of the situation, isn’t it? I’m in no position to judge anyone. I’ll be casting no first stones. In fact, I think I’ll go spend some time trying to get this log out of my eye. (The situation is a really sad one all around when you get to the root of it. Wow.)
Was out shooting video downtown late last night, & noticed the Whammy Bar was closed up tight. I had heard they were having financial problems. With it connected to the Madison, why can’t Big Al’s move there, right across street from current location? If it’s because of space problems, maybe he could expand out into next door. That would keep him on Main Street, be further from Sacred Heart Church, and still not too close to Riverside. If he’s truly getting $11 million from Matthews, (I’d like some factual verification on that)that would be more than enough to remodel Whammy’s into the new Big Al’s. Just a thought.
You can be confident of that $11 million number
Dennis: FWIW, the Journal Star reported, “According to a HVS Global Hospitality Service analysis last year, the property Zuccarini owns — along with other property attached to it — will be acquired for $11 million so a Courtyard Inn & Suites can be built.”
Precinct, in a free society, of course they do. If we do not attempt to grant equality to all sides, then we do not embrace equality. It is as simple as that. Until the law makes it illegal to engage in those activities, we have no right to judge. The beauty of the First Amendment is that we can continue to state our opinions, even if they are not held by others.
Adkinsdutro, believe me, I have accommodated the taste of crow more than once in my life, and those logs sometimes get tossed faster than cows in a tornado. And I do respect that you are trying to make the argument for Ms. Costic’s day care facility.
“if you wouldn’t want it built right next to your house, how can you stand for it being built anywhere.”
I wouldn’t want a waste treatment plant, bus station, police station, restaurant, shopping mall or factory built next to my house. I can think of quite few things that don’t belong in residential neighborhoods, but are necessary, useful or not harmful for society.
“Until the law makes it illegal to engage in those activities, we have no right to judge.”
Such as condemning it as such an unsavory business that we must mandate where it locates?
Thanks CJ, for that reference. Have you or anyone here heard why the corner of Main St/Madison (where Whammy’s is located)
couldn’t be used to relocated Big Al’s?
“Until the law makes it illegal to engage in those activities, we have no right to judge. The beauty of the First Amendment is that we can continue to state our opinions, even if they are not held by others.”
nontimendum, for your benefit, a text out of context is simply a pretext. Next time you would like to snipe at me, please include the entire quote.
My reasons for objecting to all this miasma about Big Al’s, Swingers World, Brown Bag Video, and 307 in the proximity of the ballpark have not changed, nor has the basic argument. It does not make sense to mix “adult” businesses in an area where you are trying to promote “family” entertainment and activities. As to the proximity of Big Al’s and Swingers World to the day care center, same argument, although Swingers World was there before the bus station was built and before the day care center was in existence. I guess the owner of the day care center, who also serves on the district 150 school board, may have thought about that before opening the day care center. But I am sure she was attempting to offer a legitimate service to the patrons who ride the bus to work and need a place for their children to be cared for until the get back to the bus station.
Bottom Line: There is no easy answer to all of this, but my Opinion still stands. If we are going to have an “adult zone” in the city, why not zone these businesses into a particular corridor where everyone knows what they are, what they offer, and where they are? You go there if you want, and if you are offended you don’t go.
“nontimendum, for your benefit, a text out of context is simply a pretext. Next time you would like to snipe at me, please include the entire quote.”
My aim is to avoid having the equivalent of War and Peace as a preface to relatively succinct observations. My apologies that practicality prevailed over the risk that any omission might dishonor what proves to be your signature work.
“My apologies that I(sic) practicality prevailed over the risk that any omission might dishonor what proves to be your signature work.”
No apology necessary. And you didn’t.
“If we are going to have an “adult zone” in the city, why not zone these businesses into a particular corridor where everyone knows what they are, what they offer, and where they are?”
Exactly Fred!!!
If Peoria is going to successfully compete with larger cities, what with snappy hotels, museums, etc – we are going to need our own “adult zone,” though I would prefer to call it our own ‘little’ red-light district! After all, I thought that one of our goals was to attract conferences, etc to our fair city!
CJ, speaking of the 14th Amendment, my understanding is when Ms. Sandy Fritz spokeout against Big Al’s new location at the Liquor Commission meeting, she suggested his new club site be moved father south…commissioner Don Jackson almost jumped out of his seat on that one…(a little geographic racial overtone there?) I was told she also supposedly labeled 100 percent of people who patronized Al’s as sexual predators.(I bet the annual state School Superintendent’s Convention participants who stop into Al’s enjoy that moniker) One objector was so interruptive, commissioner Drew Cassidy had to out yell her just to get her back in control…there were a couple educated and well thought out complaints, but most were very biased and filled with unfactual insinuation and societal stereotyping…the idiocy unfortunately overshadowed poor Lynn Costic’s common sense basis of argument…So Kari Alms, are these unfactual ranting types the “squashed at the bottom level of Peoria bringing it down to a lower level” the types you want to be the proper voice of your cause of concern? Well, OK then. Look, whether Al’s end’s in business or out of business is no direct concern of mine. I have no horse in this race. I was just trying to bring some comprimise and common sense to the blog. But, if drowning in the details is what you all want, then have at it. I’ll err on the side of being progressive with economic development, even if I have to hold my nose at times. That’s just life.
The story goes that one of the basement levels in the old Union Depot on State Street was the first Red Light district in Peoria. Wonder if they had this much trouble back then.