You can get all the details here, but here’s a summary of President Obama’s less-than-accurate points during his health-care speech Wednesday night:
- Obama was correct when he said his plan wouldn’t insure illegal immigrants; the House bill expressly forbids giving subsidies to those who are in the country illegally. Conservative critics complain that the bill lacks an enforcement mechanism, but that hardly makes the president a liar.
- The president said “no federal dollars will be used to fund abortions.” But the House bill would permit a “public option” to cover all abortions, and would also permit federal subsidies to be used to purchase private insurance that covers all abortions, a point that raises objections from anti-abortion groups. That’s true despite a technical ban on use of taxpayer dollars to pay for abortion coverage.
- The president repeated his promise that his plan won’t add “one dime” to the federal deficit. But legislation offered so far would add hundreds of billions of dollars to the deficit over the next decade, according to the Congressional Budget Office.
- The president overstated the degree of concentration in the insurance industry. He said that in 34 states the “insurance market” is controlled by five or fewer companies, but that’s true only of insurance bought by small groups, not the entire “insurance market.”
- Obama said his plan won’t “require you or your employer to change the coverage or the doctor you have.” It’s true that there’s no requirement, but experts say the legislation could induce employers to switch coverage for millions of workers.
Regarding that third point: I have watched and read even the most liberal columnists say that the President’s promise to provide national health care without raising the deficit is totally bogus. It is going to raise the deficit. A lot.
– J Star published this article today:
Peoria County Board says ‘no’ to new tax – Journal Star
– They published this ‘Our View’ yesterday:
Our View: City bottoming out with budget, cuts a must
Posted Sep 07, 2009 @ 11:02 PM
– Please tell me I am not the only one who fails to find the ‘humor’ in all of this. Was it not the J Star and Peoria County Board [with a few exceptions] who supported the recent sales tax increase?
– What IS funny, is that I am having trouble remembering why we needed a sales tax increase in the first place. Something about a ‘project’ downtown that would turn the ‘economic tide’ in our favor…………
Regarding that third point – What President Obama said was that if there was a cost – there would be a counterbalancing cut in spending elsewhere, so as to make the bill deficit neutral. Further, this would occur each year. For example, when the CBO or anyone else projects the cost of the plan, there are assumed to be efficiency savings realized in the future. If those savings do NOT happen, then that will require further budget cuts elsewhere. That did not happen with the Medicare drug plan, for example.
While I appreciate this pledge to make cuts so as to not add to the current deficit, that leaves too much room to play with the numbers. For example, if defense spending goes down as the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan wind down, will those cuts merely pay for increased health care costs, thus potentially realizing no deficit reduction? It’s easy to make this claim when you know there are other spending areas like defense that would otherwise “naturally” decline.
Then again, it’s better than just enacting a plan with NO mechanism to reduce costs if the plan is more expensive than anticipated.
I don’t think the costs need to be that much. If you require insurance companies to offer insurance to everyone with no pre-existing exclusions and at a reasonable price, then most people that are now uninsured could afford their own insurance. The government could pick up part of the tab for those that can not afford the full cost of their insurance.
I think the insurance companies should be required to set up “group plans” for American citizens. You could join any group you choose and the groups would be large enough, that the insurance companies could lower rates drastically. This is very similar to the German plan. The individual pays for his or her own insurance, but has 200 plans to choose from. You can change from 1 group to another at any time.
Cost could also go down by the decrease in paying for the uninsured. If people have insurance, they wouldn’t need to go to the ER for minor illnesses.
Regarding #3…
I am on the fence on this point mainly because I am more for a single payer system which I feel would be more deficit neutral. What I am seeing seems to be making a lot of assumptions that may or may not happen. I don’t like it when people rely on assumptions that they have little control over. One example… Obama has argued that the insured overpay on their premiums, so as to cover those who don’t have insurance. That’s an oversimplification really… its the medical providers that overcharge to cover the uninsured, which is then passed to you in higher premiums. So if all the uninsured were to be suddenly insured, then the insured’s premiums would go down.
So if we are currently overcharged $1000… our costs would be reduced, resulting in more taxable revenue at current rates (or the Clinton era rates), which would come back to cover the uninsured’s subsidized costs. Mmkay… the assumption made is that out of their goodwill or the invisible hand of the market insurance companies will reduce their premiums or that medical providers will reduce their billable charges. I don’t see that happening. I see them pocketing the savings and padding their profit margins as a hedge against being forced to take on or retaining money losing clients.
Regaring #5…
If the final bill results in a system that is at all comparable in costs and benefits to what businesses provide, businesses will readily drop employee coverage. This has been absolutely true in the case of Medicare, from the first day it was implemented and every expansion of coverage since. As medicare advanced, businesses retreated, eliminating duplicating coverage (which has contributed along with demographic changes, to Medicare’s woes). The assumption that the current pool of uninsured is somehow finite in size and that we just need to cover them for X millions or billions of dollars is quite possibly very wrong. That pool could well grow very quickly and be more of a threat to the deficit than #3.
Of course if the costs and benefits are not at all comparable to current well run business provided plans, the body politic will be very critical of the new system.
Mahkno, under your comments for #5, it almost sounds like you are assuming that none of the uninsured can afford their own insurance premiums. I disagree. Many if not most will be able to pay, unless the rates are outrageous, like they are now.
Most of the uninsured are uninsured because they have pre-existing conditions, or the market is just out of their price range. If I lost my job, I could afford COBRA for awhile, but after the COBRA was gone, I could not get insurance at any price because I have numerous pre-existing conditions.
It’s interesting that the USA is #37 in the world in health care, yet our health care is the most expensive in the world. It’s also interesting that the USA is the only country where health insurance companies are for profit companies.
“It’s interesting that the USA is #37 in the world in health care, yet our health care is the most expensive in the world.” (nearly DOUBLE the cost per person)
If only we could find a cure for being fat, America could truly improve its health care.
I keep hearing that there are amendments champing at the bit to be added that will result in illegals and abortions being eventually included once the passing of the bill seems sure.
You know, the kind of after-midnight stuff we all love.
I think Obama is be disingenuous on those points. He may be right at this moment that those provisions aren’t in the bill but I feel he knows they’re coming. It’s kind of a Clintonesque what the definition of “is” is thing.
“If only we could find a cure for being fat, America could truly improve its health care.”
There is but people would complain dearly.
The cure… much higher oil/gas prices (via commodity price and/or steep fuel taxes)
Jon: Isn’t the cure for being fat already here? Wouldn’t that be diet, exercise, adequate sleep, healthy thinking and healthy relationships …. in the appropriate combination for each individual? I am thin yet if I do not exercise, I am not in shape. It does take some measure of self-discipline to be healthy and fit. Perhaps I am oversimplifying the situation.
I received some information — which I need to verify. CJ since you are reading the bill, perhaps you already read this sections and you might be able/willing to provide some insight.
… that illegal immigrants may already be covered. If there is no specific requirement that a person prove his/her citizenship, said person appears to be eligible for affordability credits or coverage. Section 246 (p. 1430.
One member of the family is covered than all members will be covered. So if a child is born in the US and his/her parents are illegal immigrants, would the parents thereby be covered even though they are illegal immigrants? (p. 133)
Section 152 states that “all health care and related services (including insurance coverage and public health activities) covered by this Act shall be provided without regard to personal characteristics extraneous to the provision of high quality health care or related services”. So, does this section have the potential to include illegal immigrants because someone ”’ perhaps the ‘Commissioner’ may interpret “personal characteristics” to include legal status? (pp. 50-51, 143)
Mahnko: I agree — I do think that the pool would expand very quickly. Even though we are currently paying for uninsured patients via higher health premiums, what percentage of uninsured are actually using health facilities? I do not know that number. Is it valid to consider that when there would be equal access that the health care system would be overrun because everyone might feel entitled to health care for every small and large medical ‘need/want’? Just asking the question, not trying to provoke any arguing.
Vonster: I agree. One only needs to review the history of the legislation creating the Federal Reserve to see what happens. I believe at least 100 revisions and it is always a ‘horse of a different color’ like we all live in the land of Oz. Even this legislation initially failed because they tried to include ‘too much’ of the real intent. When the bill was changed — it passed. Then the real intent was added via revisions and amending the original legislation. We liing in the wake of the mess created by the Federal Reserve Act and revisions in our society.
For larger families, COBRA is not a viable option. If you are unemployed, how would you be able to afford $900.00 per month for your health insurance premium? especially when your income is now roughly 30% of your previous income?
It is a complicated situation — no easy answers.
So what if it raises the deficit. What did the Iraq war do? I rather that money go to health care than to a needless war. It’s not like anyone here is going to have to pony up a dime for the deficit. I have been hearing for over 30 years what the nations debt cost each person and yet to write a check.
It won’t add a dime to the deficit… this year the deficit is x number of dollars, and next year the deficit will x number of dollars. So now we have 2x number of dollars in deficit… HOWEVER there was no additional deficit in year 2.
Vonster — You have reason to be a little apprehensive. In the first 200 pages of HR 3200 (that’s as far as I’ve gotten so far), there’s no mention of public funding of abortion. The plan, however, does include full funding of comprehensive reproductive health care. From his previous statements, Obama has made it clear he believes abortions should be part of comprehensive reproductive health care.
The plan explicitly states illegal immigrants will not be covered (this was in the revised HR 3200 which was published at the end of July). We also know from his statements that Obama supports full amnesty for illegal immigrants. Once they’re granted legal status, it’s pretty likely they will be granted privileges of living in this country, including access to government health care.
Sidebar to Karrie: Cass Sunstein was confirmed as White House Regulatory Overseer (Czar) 57-40. Many of these specific definitions will likely come under his umbrella of influence.
Mahkno — I’m sure you saw the NY Times piece yesterday “Big Food v. Big Insurance.”
“That’s why our success in bringing health care costs under control ultimately depends on whether Washington can summon the political will to take on and reform a second, even more powerful industry: the food industry.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/10/opinion/10pollan.html
Lastly, on CJ’s point #5: The plan states that any existing employer-based insurance plan will be grandfathered in for five years (p16). HOWEVER, should your employer make any changes to your plan — add or eliminate an employee position, change your benefits, change your premiums, etc. — your plan will automatically be subject to review by the Commissioner.
As far as costs go, here’s a couple of statistics which Drs. Albers & Crane discussed at the Health Care Town Hall (sponsored by the Peoria Medical Society) last week.
1) $700B of the total providers charge for health care has nothing to do with patient care. Much is the result of advertising/marketing and the high costs of administration (between the amount of time and money spent collecting fees and the amount of staffing devoted to making certain they’re following the different regulations for each company/state)
2) According to SEC, the profit margins that insurance companies reported were only between 3-7%. Currently, there are approximately 1300 different insurance companies handling health insurance, although regulations prevent companies from servicing individual states.
And one area that hasn’t been addressed in figuring out all the costs…. what affect will Cap & Trade (not yet passed in the Senate, but it’s just a matter of time) have? MRI machines, x-ray machines, operating rooms, monitors, etc… all of these things use tremendous amounts of electricity. Do we really think higher utility costs won’t have an impact on the costs of health care?
When all is said and done, and you’ve read all 1017 pages of HR 3200 (which even John Conyer has said he hasn’t, and won’t, read) you won’t find anything in the bill which makes a $75 doctor’s visit, a $1000 MRI, a $1500 epidural or $100000 worth of cancer treatments cost any less. All the plan does is tell you that the government will pay (with money they’ve taken from your paycheck).
“it’s pretty likely they will be granted privileges of living in this country, including access to government health care.” well duh. If they are legal residents they are under the law.
“profit margins that insurance companies reported were only between 3-7%”
not bad. Considering that profits come AFTER bonuses, reinvestment and all the other costs of doing business.
When all is said and done, you only have to answer one question: Is health care, the right to be treated as a human being, something only the rich should have?
kcdad sez: “When all is said and done, you only have to answer one question: Is health care, the right to be treated as a human being, something only the rich should have?”
I say: Couldn’t have said it better. That is what those on the Right seem to forget. That is what those that scream “I want my America back” at town halls seem to forget. The ignorant masses are just that, masses and like sheep easy to herd. Ignorance can be cured, but stupidity is chronic.
“Cap & Trade”
What is with the neo-con capitalists opposing Cap and Trade? Isn’t it a pure incentive program based on individual choice and achievement? You can use your profits to buy pollution credits from non-polluters who gain from being more energy efficient.
I don’t get it. As long as the wind is blowing you don’t care about air pollution and as long as you outsource your factories to India or Mexico you don’t care about ground or water pollution there? I guess that makes sense. (Although Union Carbide, McDonalds and Coca Cola are among those that have realized that foreign countries have governments and courts too.)
Whenever the subject of illegal immigrants comes up, I always wonder if they would come to America if they couldn’t make money here. Don’t most of them work here? Aren’t employers supposed to report illegal immigrants–and not give them jobs? So who is to blame, the immigrants or the employers who want cheap labor?
See, here I go again, agreeing with kcdad and Emtronics.
Here’s my health care reform bill.
Require insurance companies, that want to be a part of the action open “groups” just like employers have. Guarantee 100 or more companies that they will have at least 100,000 signing into their group. Bigger corporations get better insurance plans for lower cost because they are insuring so many people, so this would be no different.
Specify to the insurance companies that they must charge everyone the same price and they can not exclude treatment for pre-existing conditions.
Require that the insurance companies can not have exclusions and they must pay for what a Dr requests. We don’t need the government or an insurance company standing between a patient and their doctors, but it happens everyday with insurance companies.
The premiums should be low enough, with large pools of members that most people could afford their own insurance. If they can not, then the government could provide some assistance.
Other than setting the initial parameters that the policy must require, it would involve limited government, no absurd death panels, no socialism.
If companies don’t want to provide their own policies to their employees, they would then have to chip in to the employees individual premium.
We wouldn’t consider soldiers working for profit, we wouldn’t consider politicians working for profit, we wouldn’t consider ANY government agency working on a profit basis, so why should we allow insurance to, when they have a “captive” clientele? Insurance for homes and cars are mandatory. Insurance for Social Security and medicare and medicaid are mandatory… health care insurance will be mandatory… so why allow these companies an easy, unearned profit?
Take the profit out of insurance and it becomes what it should be. Take the profit out of health care and it becomes what it should be.
Health care = the right to be treated as a human being? Silly me
Did I once say I didn’t agree with health insurance reform? I don’t remember saying that…. but I am just one of the “ignorant masses”, aren’t I….
No pre-existing condition exemptions? Insurance portability? The right of individuals to buy insurance at the same low rate as corporations? End wasteful duplication of testing? The right to discuss with your physician what you think the best course of treatment would be? Absolutely. And if the bill were this simple, there would be no complaints. Throw in a little tort reform, remove direct patient marketing of medicines/medical services and the need for defensive medicine, and I think you’re just about there.
“Cap and Trade? Isn’t it a pure incentive program based on individual choice and achievement?”
You mean, choice, as in the choice of what light bulb to use?
Whether or not you like the bill, answer these simple questions: will energy be more or less expensive under Waxman-Markley Cap & Trade? Will everything that uses energy be more or less expensive under W-M Cap & Trade? Will or will not those costs get passed on?
“As long as the wind is blowing you don’t care about air pollution … or ground or water pollution there?”
Robert Shapiro doesn’t seem to feel this bill is the best way to achieve climate change or pollution control.
http://www.sonecon.com/blog/?p=200
I return to my previous statement: HR 3200 doesn’t make health care cheaper (or better). It makes government bigger and more powerful.
What amazes me is this: countless posts have been written decrying NCLB, saying how outrageous it is to try and have the federal government control education policy and set national standards. Many of the members of Congress who wrote/voted for this legislation are still in office and worked on HR 3200. And this is the same government to whom you are willing to turn over all of health care.
Ignorant masses are those who believed that Obama was “The One” who speaks only truth. We are now seeing that he is just another lying politician. “Hope and Change”. I think not.
Regardless of whatever people like emtronics and kcdad think about the health care debate, one thing still stands in the way. The fact that we can’t afford it.
The bill may not cover illegals, but if I’m an illegal and I walk into an emergency room bleeding to death, I bet I get treated.
HipKat, What is your point?
SharonCrews; There are a number of Peoria area companies that routinely hire illegals. They pay minimum wage or barely above. Because the illegals are available at that wage, the companies then do not hire real Americans at a higher wage. It drags everything down.
Did you know that the going rate for false SS ID, etc to get a job is now around $500 for an illegal? They perpetuate identity theft. Where do you think they get the SS# and ID’s to get their jobs? I worked for a local company that hired illegals – I know what goes on.
If I choose not to have car insurance and crash my car into a tree, I can not then call to get insurance and expect them to pay for the wreck. Health insurance is the same. If I choose not to have health insurance, then find out I need a triple bypass heart operation, well I guess under the new plan I will just call an insurance company and sign up for a new policy and they will have to pay. Why would anyone pay to have insurance on a daily bases? I spent over $4000 dollars last year on insurance so it would be there if I needed it. Under the new plan I for one plan to drop my policy and be uninsured. If a need comes up I will just sign up for a new policy with my pre existing condition, that they will be required to cover, get it covered, then stop paying again. Works for me!!!
Now if they will just make the car insurance pay for pre existing wrecks.
Heck! I can’t afford health care now. What do you mean “We can’t afford it” 11bravo? I had a serious illness a few years back and if it wasn’t for my company insurance, I would have been wiped out. Homeless. In America. The richest country on the planet. What I think is….We can’t afford NOT to have national heath care.
As for Point of Order’s comment on Obama I will say this: Lying or not, he has only held office barely 8 months. I don’t think that is any length of time to judge his Presidency. On the other hand, Bush’s Presidency is in concrete for all time and I think the ignorant masses, most of us anyway, were totally duped by this “boy wonder” and his unchecked spending on a needless war that has bankrupt this country which Obama inherited by the way. I’ll take my chances with Obama. He is light years better than George W and Obama can make a complete sentence.
I am optimistic on this and after the Bush years, all 8 of them (remember, we were attacked during Bush’s Presidency) I am willing to give Obama a chance. If after 4 years, Obama has showed he has failed, well then I will voted against him but I will not succumb like the GOP is now to do everything I can to make him fail and spew lies like birthers and death squads. The GOP has sunk to a new low.
Only you didn’t become homeless and you could afford it because of private insurance. Were you trying to make a case of maintaining the private insurance system?
“You mean, choice, as in the choice of what light bulb to use?”
Yes, and what kind of fuel to cook your meals… gas or electric, instead of manure or wood. Your choice among FDA approved foods and drinks, your choice among EPA approved water supplies, your choice among safe automobiles, your choice among fouses built to federal building codes…
“Robert Shapiro…” Did you read the article? He said it won’t do ENOUGH; 3% reduction instead of 25% reduction in greenhouse gasses compared to 1990. His point is that the bill isn’t restrictive or punitive ENOUGH.
“It makes government bigger and more powerful.”
Than what? Insurance companies?
“decrying NCLB, saying how outrageous it is to try and have the federal government control education policy and set national standards.”
I don’t think anyone doesn’t know the Federal Government (Dept of Ed already oversees and always has) set national standards and set educational policy. The problem with NCLB as I listen to teachers is that it focuses on statistical criteria that become meaningless as a determinant of progress… rather than outcome based or MBO type policy, it uses so called “objective” test scores to determine outcomes.
DO YOU KNOW the origins of public education in America and why we have it? Do you understand the inequalities in public education that have always existed and why President Eisenhower sent Federal troops to make sure some citizens could safely attend a public school?
“What amazes me is this:”
What amazes me is how afraid America has become. Afraid of change. Afraid of equality. Afraid of justice. Afraid of a man with dark skin in the White House. Afraid of their neighbors. Afraid of life.
“we can’t afford it” Who is “we”, 11bravo?
Do you think companies that have insurance do it for “free”? It comes out of what they would pay in salaries. Instead of paying you $20,000, they pay you 15 and kick in 3000 to insurance. They tell you how great it is that they are covering your insurance costs so you take the lower salary…
Did you take the time to watch those Humana videos I linked about how insurance works? It is a great legit ponzi scheme. THEY admit it. The reason they are lobbying so hard against the public option is that they stand to gain a clientele of 350,000,000 if health care becomes mandatory, like auto insurance and mortgage insurance and other forms of insurance already are.
Why don’t we mandatory for everyone to wear uniforms to school so we can help out the local clothes retailers… oh! We already did that.
How about we make it mandatory to get a digital TV or converter in order to watch the “free” broadcasts… oh! We already do that.
How about we make it mandatory that everyone become vegetarian to help out the farmers and protect cow and chickens. I betcha the soy farmers would lobby for that like CRAZY!
You’re right kcdad, which is why we need to limit the amount of meddling the federal government does in health care, or any other industry for that matter. No argument from me on that, except for the ponzi scheme comparison.
Nope no case for private insurance. I was fortunate enough to have a decent job that subsided my health insurance which paid for my treatments provided, PROVIDED, I went to the hospital and doctor THEY told me too. (Gee, sounds like what people are bitching about the Government is going to do) Once my insurance company approved my treatments and my specialist, they approved paying for it. Again, no doctor made the choice but some lady from Blue Cross named Vickie. Vickie isn’t an MD. I have never met Vickie. Yet she made my health decisions. If I didn’t like them, I paid. Pretty thin line there from being homeless and broke and taking what you are handed.
No, insurance in this country is wonderful. And 11bravo, you are right, we should remove ALL Federal meddling in health care. That means no Medicare, no VA, and no health insurance for Congress.
end/sarcasm
She didn’t make your health decisions, what she did do was decide whether or not the treatments were covered under the scope of the insurance contract you agreed to. If you didn’t like what was covered/not covered you are more than entitled to purchase your own individual health insurance plan. Regardless of what proponents of universal health care say, they are fairly affordable that is what I have.
And thanks for pointing out the VA and Medicare, since they are such shining examples of what happens when you let government control health care decisions. Maybe if we get a single payer system everyone in Peoria can be lucky enough to drive all the way to Danville just for an examination.
The other problem is that if the government is running the system, then what higher authority do you appeal to when you aren’t getting the care you need? The bill in the House currently bans lawsuits and other civil remedies for improper or ineffective care.
11Bravo:
Please learn and remember some history of this nation.
http://www.liberalslikechrist.org/LLC_JavaMenu.htm
“If you didn’t like what was covered/not covered you are more than entitled to purchase your own individual health insurance plan.”
Who do you think paid for the plan he was on? Did it come from some place other than the same place his salary came from?
11bravo: the insurance lady did indeed pick my doctor. My family doctor wanted a different specialist for my problem but the insurance company said no, take this doctor or nothing. If I said no, then I paid full price even though I am paying for health insurance. Does that sound right? No it doesn’t. If I quit, then another insurance company comes on and says sorry, pre-existing condition does not apply. Wow, you must have never been sick.
As for the VA. A brand new clinic is being built in Peoria no thanks to years of Bush cuts. No more Danville. But, even on private insurance, some people have to travel to different hospitals. Like the Mayo Clinic.
You also didn’t mention the government insurance Congress has. Bet that is well run.
kcdad,
I’m sure you’re aware, as you are an enlightened individual, that Congress banned the sale of incandescent light bulbs beginning in 2012. Obviously we, the unenlightened public, were too ignorant to be entrusted with our own choice of bulbs. The same way we can’t be trusted to spend our own money, so it must be taken from us.
In the case of health care, the government wishes to take over and run the health care industry. You obviously feel that the insurance companies no longer have the right to exist, as you believe they have done such a poor job. And the answer is to have Father America do it for us. The Commissioner won’t tell you that you can’t go see Dr Smithenjones on the corner, but he/she can tell Dr Smithenjones that he’s not following procedures correctly and will face sanctions, financial punishment or be shut down. I can see how that’s a better system.
In most of the cases you sighted, the government is merely regulating industry. TVs, automobiles, clothing, utilities, food. While some regulations have been helpful (even though I’m a closet supporter of water contaminants — I can’t believe you detected my cover!), in most cases it’s just the slow eating away at our liberties.
Of course, as one of the ignorant masses, I probably shouldn’t be trusted with too many liberties — I’m probably incapable of handling them.
Wow! I just had an epiphany. As a middle-class white female, I am forced to sit here contemplating my views and just how ignorant I am about life around me. And the more I sit, the more I realize that, because of my conservative beliefs in the ideals of limited government intervention and human potential, I realize that I am a danger to myself, my family and everyone in my community. The only way to protect those around me is to end it all….
And so I bid you adieu……
RIP Martha
Give me the freedom to buy an incandescent light bulb or give me death!
Yes I do understand how it works, however my point was that at the time you signed the contract you were aware of the limitations and networks you were allowed to use, correct? If you had a problem with it you could have changed then, obviously you can’t change in the middle of a treatment. As for the VA, no comparison to the Mayo scenario. Are you telling me that the treatment at Danville is comparable to the Mayo Clinic? The problem with the VA was that you had to go to Danville for some of the most typical treatments which is not what people go to the Mayo Clinic for.
kcdad, no one subscribes to your screwed up interpretation of history and I won’t be the first. But since we’re on the topic I do remember that there was no universal health care, income tax, and you could challenge someone to a duel for something as small as challenging your knowledge of history. Those were the days…
Expert Rifleman… 2 out of 3 times (Sharpshooter once)
I actually have shot a person before… you?
“I do remember… ”
So you are what… 275 years old? Duels were outlawed in early colonial days. The has been income taxes since the founding of the country, and medicare is almost 45 years old. I’m not surprised at what you think you remember…
kcdad, like the claims of your blacklisted father I doubt your military service as well…
There has not been federal income tax since the colonial days.