EmergePeoria is having an interesting discussion with Erik Bush, one of the members of the new D150 finance committee. While you’re reading it, leave a comment of your own so that Emerge can feel the blog love.
EmergePeoria is having an interesting discussion with Erik Bush, one of the members of the new D150 finance committee. While you’re reading it, leave a comment of your own so that Emerge can feel the blog love.
More people should stop over there…. here is your chance to speak directly to one of the committee members who seems very willing to dialogue! Go ask your questions!
I would add, “and respect”. I find her blog very informative, intelligent and balanced – a window into a world that many of us do not know well or understand much.
I would like to ask a question in the hope of thoughtful input: When did teachers in District 150 begin working only 6.5 hrs per day contractually and is there a correlation between their reduced hours and student acheivement? Do citizens,parents, and taxpayers feel our children deserve a full 8 hour day from teachers contractually? What other professions work 33 hours a day for 9 months with the same pay, pension, and benefits? Let me state emphatically, I don’t think that teachers are over-paid, I’m just seeking thoughtful input from those involved and the public at-large. Thank you!
Should be 33 hours per week. Even Board member knows there aren’t 33 hours in a day……
Jim: Not trying to be a smart — I think that you have a typo.
What other professions work 33 hours a day for 9 months with the same pay, pension, and benefits?
Teachers do not work 33 hours a day. Perhaps teachers are in school or the classroom or whatever combination for 33 hours in a weeK (5 x 6.5 = 32.5).
Nevertheless, I do not know of one teacher from when I attended school as a child or as an adult who does not spend time away from school/classroom preparing — classrooms, lessons, grading papers and so on and so on and so on……
I grew up in Southern California and we attended class in grade school (K-6) — we had 6.5 hours of instruction and we faired well. As students, we were expected to comport ourselves with respect toward our teachers, each other and our principal. In all my time in K-6, I recall three children who had discipline issues. One a bully in the third grade. The other two students, in sixth grade were class clowns. Three students in seven years of schooling. Parents and their expectations of what is acceptable and non-acceptable behavior are vital to their children’s achievement and the other students. As children, we did not feel picked on or that the teacher had it in for us. Our compliance with rules and the behavior of showing respect was expected as the standard, not the exception to the rule. We knew that our teachers cared about us and wanted us to learn to the best of our individual abilities. We also knew, that as students we needed and again we were expected to help each other to achieve by being respectful not disruptive and disrespectful in class.
In society, there has been a divergence from respect which is significantly weakening our society.
Karrie – please let me know how I FOIA the accuarcy of your statements. Thank you.
Reason I ask – you state you had 6.5 hrs of instruction. When did professional devleopment take place and how was it compensated?
Jim, I don’t believe our tax dollars go towards paying Karrie a salary, so good luck with that.
Teacher don’t stop working when the children go home. I do not know one teacher who does not take work home with them or stay after school to get it done so they don’t have to take it home….
Jim, I hope you don’t expect me to remain silent on this subject. For as long as I was a high school teacher (36 years), I was actually in the classroom only 5 hours a day. When I began teaching high school in 1969, we had a 7-hour day–so students were in class 7 hours but teachers taught only 5 classes. When high schools went to a six hour day, teachers still taught only 5 hours but students were short changed by one hour.
Of course, you think teachers are overpaid or you wouldn’t have said, “What other professions work 33 hours a day for 9 months with the same pay, pension, and benefits?” Of course, I believe that it would be academically beneficial if students went to school for more than 9 months a year–but that is not the question we are debating here. Teachers’ salaries are a matter of public record, but others’ are not, so I don’t really know how a teacher’s salary compares with that of other professions. We have had this discussion on this blog before, so I know that there are those who believe teachers should work a longer day with no extra pay. Actually, it probably wouldn’t make much difference–because most teachers give that extra hour anyway. However, taking away that hour’s pay per day might upset some Edison teachers–let’s see how they feel about your idea. Losing time is not as upsetting as losing money.
If you want teachers to work more hours in the classroom, then I hope they decide to give you exactly what you ask for–eight hours and no more. Of course, teachers know that to survive in the classroom they have to work far more hours than those they spend in the classroom. Therefore, you can probably count on teachers to give far more than the 8 hours you would require of them. If teachers worked only eight hours a day, then student achievement would definitely suffer. As I have told you before, teachers not only give more over time to their jobs but also spend more money on supplies, etc., than do people in other professions. I have worked office jobs and I never had to buy my own supplies–but teachers do. Who pays for all those bullletin board materials? You did hear the Thomas Jefferson teachers lamenting how much they lost in the fire–supplies that the school didn’t provide, supplies that make teaching much more effective–probably of more educational value than an hour of professional development per day.
I have worked in offices, etc., where people were supposed to work 8 hours a day–and rarely did I see that happening. I guess I’ll ask–do you work 8 hours a day non-stop within the confines of one room, with no social interaction with adults? Teachers are in a room with children for their work day. Primary school teachers are even more restricted than are high school teachers. They can’t even leave to use the restroom. If you really want to see wasted time, try shadowing all the people who work at the board rooms (or maybe some principals, etc.) Do you really believe they work for 8 hours straight? Do you really believe that some of them who make double a teacher’s salary really contribute to student achievement? Do you expect the superintendent, principals, etc., to spend part of their work day in professional development? It seems that their administrative degrees are accepted as all the professional development that they need. What isn’t a teaching degree worth as much?
This whole professional development thing is a very, very new phenomenon. Teachers have four years of professional development (college) before they ever start teaching (with education classes required–the how to classes). Then they continue to go to school throughout their careers–isn’t that professional development? What other professions require professional development one hour a day?
Karrie is right–without the benefit of FOIA proof. Schools are in crisis–but you can’t put the blame on the number of hours teachers work or the lack of professional development, etc. But since you can’t control those other factors, you might just as well stick it to the teachers if it will make you feel better. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if teachers’ working an extra hour a day would get all the schools off the NCLB watch and warning lists? Oh, well, Jim, teacher negotiations will definitely be interesting this year. Love you, anyway!
Without getting into the whole hours per week discussion, my impression of what makes teacher compensation “exceptional” is the insurance and pension. To understand how well a teacher is compensated you have to look at the entire package. To have a defined benefit plan in this day and age is HUGE!! Plus the health insurance offered to teachers is far less costly (premium) and more comprehensive than most employers offer, especially ones with such limited budgets. Given the nature of Jim’s employment, he is in an excellent position to comment on this.
Jim, I notice a common theme of your comments is the blame game. The North Peoria parents aren’t involved enough and complain too much, The old Peoria parents don’t parent properly, the teachers don’t work long or hard enough. It reminds me of the “spattered sh**” theory – whatever sticks.
What shortcomings, if any, would you attribute to this board of Ed and current Administration?
“What other professions work 33 hours a day [sic] for 9 months with the same pay, pension, and benefits?”
What other profession works 9 months out of the year but can’t collect unemployment during the months when there is no work??
There are also hours and hours of professional development outside the classroom/day/year. Summer workshops, overnight workshops, after-school-well-into-the-evening workshops, IEP meetings, MDC meetings.
Declines in achievement have far more to do with unfunded mandates and creating a school climate where teachers are pressed to teach all their material by Christmas so that they can prepare students for the Spring Standardized Testing Season. My own students have hours of ISAT prep time, ISAT prep “Pep Rallies”, ISAT “After Parties”.
How about this: What are your qualifications for being on the school board, how much do you work at your job and how much do get paid in income and benefits?
In this economy, with public money being spent all over the place to support banks, investments, manufacturers and construction companies… MAYBE we should all lay our cards on the table and end this taboo of talking about compensation.
Me first… I make less than $8 per hour, teaching one class short of a full time schedule at a junior college. That’s ~ $16,000 per year. I get no benefits, no paid vacation, and get one 2 1/2 – 3 week period a year off between semesters without pay.
I’m waiting…
Jill: Excellent points about already existing professional development, the mandates, time taken away from teaching just to prepare for the “how to take” the ISAT tests, etc.
Frustrated: I have to agree that in the business world changes have been made regarding pensions and insurance. For instance, I have uncles, who–without even a high school education–worked at Caterpillar and had better insurance and pensions than teachers did. I believe that has probably changed considerably. Teachers’ pensions weren’t all that great until the last ten to fifteen years–that’s my guess. Perhaps we need to see some studies that compare salary plus benefits. Is it possible that those without the benefits make higher salaries so that they can afford to pay for their own insurance and for pension savings? Just asking because I really don’t know.
However, Jim’s desire to increase the number of hours that a teacher works has nothing to do with cost savings–unless, of course, the Edison and Manual teachers will no longer get the extra pay for a longer day and our year (as in the case of Manual).
As for Jim’s profession, wouldn’t it be to the benefit of his business if teachers had to invest to build up their own pension funds?
Just a bit off subject but . . . how do teachers feel about working a longer day or having less time off during the Summer??? I have several friends that are teachers with families and they cherish the hours they work and their Summers off. It allows for a great work/family balance that so many other careers deny.
I think the BOE members who oversee a $160 million budget of tax payer dollars should 1. Have a minimum set of qualifications they must meet and 2. be paid
Back in the day (1966) when starting pay was $5,200 a year, I started teaching. The school day was 8:30 to 3:30, but we were expected to be in the classroom by 8 and not leave prior to 4 (unless there was a meeting). The pay was for nine months work, but we were given the option of being paid over 12 months and we were paid once a month. I lasted 10 years.
Several days of “Teacher’s Institute” were scheduled throughout the year for training. Papers were often (usually) graded at home, as were lessons plans created and tests written. We were expected to be a “class sponsor” and to attend a variety of school functions on our own time. Most of us took college classes or worked toward advanced degrees during the summer. I think that additional course work is now required to maintain a “Teaching Certificate”.
I have to agree with Karrie. Most of the heroes in the classroom want to do what it takes to teach the children the skills and knowledge they will need to survive in the real world. It is hard to counter the societal problems in a 45-minute class period.
Even in 1976, I got tired of being more of a drill sergeant than an educator.
Frustrated: I think teachers would not all agree about their time off in the summer. Most teachers, especially if they are the primary bread winners in the family, work in the summer anyway–often at minimum wage jobs. I know that I worked every summer of my career until maybe the last five years. I worked some all day jobs but mostly summer school (usually 6 hours a day but not for the whole summer because summer school was only for part of the summer). However, teachers do have to use summers to take classes for their “professional” development and to go up on the salary schedule. Probably the examples you gave are families where both parents are teachers–who are a little better off financially to enjoy the time off. I would still be willing to bet that one or the other of them work for, at least, part of the summer–don’t take 3-month vacations.
One more thought about “Professional Development.” Perhaps we need to look into how much this professional development during the school day costs the district. Most workshops, etc., are conducted by out of the district personnel who undoubtedly are paid either by the district or by some kind of grants (all of which do come out of taxpayers’ pockets). Some (I might even say most) of these workshops are utter nonsense–often conducted by people who spent little time in the classroom but have become “experts.”
How much would you like to bet that–if teachers are asked to work an extra hour a day for common planning–the district will hire a “Director of Common Planning” at a high administrative salary?
Ramble on: All sounds very familiar. I started teaching in 1962 at even less. I don’t remember being paid once a month–but I do remember taking my pay over 12 months–quite a stretch: that’s when I realized that we were paid for only 9 months of work. I am not certain about the 8 to 4–I think more like 3:40, but could be wrong. That was with 15 minutes before and after school and 30 minutes for lunch. And high school teachers did have two hours prep time and taught 5 classes.
Some other memories are floating back. I think there was a time when we were forced to take our pay in 9 months. Trying to budget for the other 3 months was very difficult. I recall a superintendent saying that he didn’t want the public to think we were being paid for not working, do we weren’t given the 12 month option.
Kcdad: You make a very good point about everyone laying their cards on the table. Teachers are an easy target because their salaries are a matter of public record. You are right–now that banks, businesses, etc., are being bailed out with taxpayer money maybe their employees’ compensation should be a matter of public record, also.
Sharon – My point in questioning expanding teaching hours, is simply for schools to consider the impact on its workforce, both good and bad. As you point out, some teachers may prefer to work additional hours, if compensated. But, it is also important to consider that K-12 education employs many females. And, some perhaps . . . selected the field of teaching or remain in the field, because it offers professional employment with more balanced hours than say the corporate world.
As someone that has struggled professionally in a field that does allow much accommodation for family, I guess I appreciate and value those careers that still do.
Frustrated: I agree that teaching is a great field for females for the reasons that you give. I hadn’t thought of your reasoning before, but I think Jim would do well to listen. Many 150 teachers are parents who probably did choose teaching so that they could keep the same hours (and vacations) as their children. Of course, this is a double-edged sword situation in that the primary bread winner might be interested in a longer year, etc., with more pay. Schools haven’t quite caught up with the changes of the last century. Not too long before I started teaching, married women could not teach. I remember a situation at Manual (before my time there), a male and female teacher (who were friends of my parents) were secretly married for many years–and, of course, lived in separate houses and never revealed their marital status until the man died and she chose to give up the secret. Then, after married women were allowed to teach, they had to quit as soon as they became pregnant. The personnel director at the time (so the story goes) asked women to reveal the date of conception because they had to leave within three months of conception. A colleague of mine at Manual was one of the first teachers allowed to teach during her pregnancy–her daughter is probably in her 40s now.
As I have stated before, for a long time the education workforce was made up primarily of “old maid” teachers–who did not demand higher pay, etc. Even when I was growing up women had three main choices: teacher, nurse, secretary.
Now that women have more choices, teaching is still attractive for the reasons that you mention. Balancing their needs with the needs of those who need to make more money to support a family is a problem. And, of course, as usual, I am good at understanding the problem and not so good at offering a solution.
Manual accolades (for a change): Yesterday at the regional speech finals in Bloomington, Manual students in the duet event and poetry event won and are now on their way to state finals. Karen Adkins-Dutro, who is their coach, has worked tirelessly with these students for the last 3 or 4 years. And I have worked tirelessly (Ha!) helping with Karen and Jeff’s five (one or two at a time) children while they are working with 150 kids in one capacity or another. (So, Frustrated, I do understand how attractive teaching hours are for those who have families–and I do think that some consideration should be given to so many of these teachers who try to juggle their time caring for their own children while also working with other children).
Anyway, Manual is still producing students who can compete with the best in the city.
Sharon – thank you for sharing that bit of history relating to women in the workforce. It is amazing how many changes have occurred for women and yet, I think many still feel shackled by the structure of full-time employment.
I think customization is the long term solution to what ails District 150. Some students need a gifted education program and others require remedial assistance, some students’ needs will be better met with vocational training and others want to pursue a competitive college prep program.
I am hoping that the District will not seek a “one size fits all” solution to education, as it has done in some cases in the past, as it consolidates schools and plans new programs in the future. If the District really analyzes its population and customizes it program offerings, I think it will also be able to match employment opportunities that best “fit” teachers’ professional/personal aspirations.
Jim: you do not want to get into a debate with Karrie or Sharon-they will eat you for dinner as they will anyone else, not a teacher, elaborating on 150 policy. You do a good job on the board, you are trying things out, but the answer is not longer unpaid hours, but more sense of direction given by the Admistration, and thusly Principals. There is no greater profession than being a teacher, so treat them right! We at the home (no teachers) enjoy reading the blogs and fighting over the noon hour. Remember your dads’ philosophy: get ahead and hold the ball!
Wacko: This particular teacher has always been treated right by Jim–even when he was in my classroom. We do argue (or discuss) about 150 issues. I definitely appreciate his willingness to take our abuse on the blog. In the end, I know that he and the other board members have the final vote–so we’ll keep adding our two cents’ (or dollars’) worth until the vote is cast and probably after the vote is cast. It is up to the board to sort out all these “suggestions” and vote their conscience.