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73 thoughts on “Open Soapbox”
So the price of a stamp has gone up…I’m not complaining though. I think it’s pretty damn neat that you can mail a letter anywhere in this fine country for 42 cents. Cheers
(CBS) Most children growing up in the US memorize the Pledge of Allegiance. But, in one Oregon elementary school, the kids won’t be allowed to recite it at an end of the year assembly.
The principal banned it that day so as not to offend Muslims.
Trolling Vonster?
The principal was a moron for doing this .. for the reasons stated. Practicing Muslims has no aversion to mentioning God, as the article stated.
The fact remains, we ought to NOT be making young students recite a pledge of loyalty to a flag OR, by inference, to God. We ought to teaching out children to be loyal to a nation that is founded on LAWS.
My 7th grader chooses not to recite the pledge. He was only confronted about it one time. We did, however, explain how his actions might hurt the feelings of his classmates and teachers who are in the military. His response was that reciting the pledge has nothing to do with hoping troops arrive home safe, healthy, and soon.
If your 7th. Grader goes to a public school, he should be expelled. The taxpayers should not have to subsidize him. In any event, someday, someone will teach him the brat a lesson.
He should be expelled? Uh. The whole moment of silence thing was overturned. While I might not agree with him or you, he’s entitled to his opinion. Isn’t that what that piece of fabric is supposed to represent?
Mouse: Wrong. His parents are taxpayers, He’s a resident of the school district and is thus entitled to the benefits every other person in such circumstances is in. You might want to read that part of the Constitution about equal benefits under the law.
Great point Vonster. Because that is one of the biggest problems facing this country. Spot on as usual.
In keeping with your usual train of thought, I heard the Clinton’s were responsible for this whole thing.
Finally found out where to get Cheap Trick tix for their July 3 concert at the Riverfront. Co-op Tapes and Records in Campustown at the corner of Main and University. No reserved seating and the tix are $30 bucks. You have to go there in person to get them. Anyone going??
In keeping with your train of thought Mazr,Bush is the reason for all bad things happening today including 12 year old children who won’t recite an allegiance to a country that their great grandparents fought and died for.
Great Grandparents, Great Uncles, Grandfathers and cousins fought and died for my right and my kid’s right NOT to have to recite an oath of allegiance.
Bill Dennis,
“We ought to teaching out children to be loyal to a nation that is founded on LAWS.”
Isn’t that what the Pledge does? What embodies our LAWS if not our REPUBLIC?
“I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.”
RIXBLIX,
“Great Grandparents, Great Uncles, Grandfathers and cousins fought and died for my right and my kid’s right NOT to have to recite an oath of allegiance.”
In the end…why is it so damn tough for YOUR kid to recite the pledge…maybe show a little respect for all of those “Great Grandparents, Great Uncles, Grandfathers and cousins.”
You people who are willing to invoke the ‘Patriotic Spirit’ to crush the ‘Patriotic Spirit,’ absolutely slay me.
Mr.New Voice, why is it so hard for you to accept that we all have the right and responsibility to honor each other and our country in our own way?
Rixblix,
So be it. Besides, after reading the other postings tonight, picking on you would not be fun anymore.
DIANE VESPA!
Two issues:
1.) I posted sometime ago about Cheap Trick tickets being $30.00, free St.Louis concert, cool fireworks, etc. You merely responded by posting a goofy, girlie-like message. I am displeased.
2.) What is your phone number?
Bill Dennis? I refuse to call any adult ‘Billy.’
Perhaps we need to bring History and Civics back into the curriculum so we teach our children why this country is so great.
Billy, I am not sure why a 7th grader has the same rights as an adult in your universe. Their judgment must be lacking because they can’t drive and can’t vote and/or perform other tasks which require adult thought.
Rixblix, Children usually express the same political position as their parents, so I assume you support the child’s “opinion” even though I might not call it independent thought.
And whats wrong with loyalty to the land that provides you with freedom and a good living – but for the grace of God (or pure chance if you prefer) you could have been born in Darfur or Kosovo or China or Cuba or Venezuela.
Of course you could also be born in the UK which allows their government to hold terrorists 42 days without charges or in Sweden which allows the government to spy on all communications that transverse their services or in France which uses “hate speech” laws to suppress Constitutionally protected discussions.
Ok – off the soap box – have a good day!
Hey, know what Murrel? I just finished blogging about it! We don’t necessarily support his position but as long as he’s willing to deal with the consequences….
Great.
Now we have to send Rixblix AND his kid to GITMO.
He’s a she.
Reciting the pledge of allegiance has zero bearing on one’s loyalty to one’s country. Demanding or requiring that the pledge to be recited is nothing more than coercion and intimidation. There is no loyalty in that.
The whole Under God part is inflammatory because to significant numbers of citizens of this country that ‘Under God’ refers to a specific God, which isn’t your God. It would be nice if we had a society that was all warm fuzzy and Ecumenical (sp?) but we DO NOT.
Oh and the whole Under God part wasn’t originally part of the pledge. The history of which has been elaborated on ad nauseum here and elsewhere.
So now we live in a representative democracy, eh?
OK… who do are our representatives represent?
let’s take a look at them… do they look like you and me? Did they go to the same school as you and me, inherit the same trust funds as you and me? Do they sit on the boards of the same multinational corporations as you and me?
Don’t kid yourself… when we vote someone in office who represents us, they get buried or bought off.
Reciting the pledge is not honoring policitians, kcdad. If you have read many of my posts, you know I am not an apologist for the establishment. But politics has to end somewhere. That somewhere is your loyalty to the country, as expressed in the Pledge. If you can’t pledge loyalty to the country, then you should get out. Period. Go somewhere more to your liking. And to suggest that our soldiers and sailors fought (let alone, died) to give this snot-nose kid the “right” to flagrantly disrespect the country is obscene. We don’t ask our citizens, or our troops, to pledge loyalty to any King, dictator, President, or party. Our troops salute the flag every day. Their loyalty is to the country. If have no use for those who think they have a “right” to be disloyal.
Mahkno,
Usually you have something good to say, but this time….well, you must have been drinking when you wrote your last post. What the hell is wrong with you people? Coercion and intimidation? Nobody is “forced” to do anything anymore. Our country may or may not live up to the ideals expressed in the Pledge, but I believe WE as a PEOPLE try.
For most younger school-age children the Pledge might be their very first ‘lesson’ in American history. It at least explains/summarizes what we as a democratic republic strive for: liberty, justice, etc.
People are not stupid…at least most people. The context of “Under God” can and has changed. I believe most people cut-and-paste the image of their own god, placing it neatly in the pledge. As far as I know…no one is demanding that a certain ‘god’ be invoked every time the pledge is recited.
Do you anti-Pledge people remained seated at sporting events when the anthem is song? I’ll bet Mahkno is the only guy sitting on his butt at a ball game when the flag goes up!
A few type-o mistakes. I caught them.
New Voice… did you read what Mouse wrote? He wants kids expelled, their benefits cut off, and ultimately he alludes to violence. Smacks of coercion if I ever read. If a school requires students to recite that pledge, what is the consequence if they do not? Expulsions, suspension, ridicule by teacher? Coercion! If someone wants to recite the pledge then fine… as long as it is a voluntary event. But don’t go reading too much into it.
Yes people DO place their own God in the image they invoke when reciting the pledge. It happens a LOT. Depending on where you are, it can most certainly be viewed as an act of demanding that one accede to the prevailing faith of the community, the classroom, or that of the teacher. It is also viewed as affirming that specific prevailing faith. Something that the Constitution clearly wants to avoid. That doesn’t bother these folks because they don’t agree with what is in the Constitution. They most certainly want the(ir) church involved at every level of public life. That includes the Pledge of Allegiance.
Now is this common in Peoria? Not as far as I have seen, but down South, very much so.
People’s basic rights need to be protected. There were good reasons for why the Pledge, as originally conceived, deliberately avoided any religious reference. It was written by a Baptist minister. He understood full well the perils of including something akin to Under God.
This reminds me of an episode of This American Life where they profiled a young Muslim child who was literally driven out of town, along with her family. The father was a largely secular leaning immigrant from Lebanon, the mother was second or third generation Muslim woman who also was very secular, the child barely knew what being a muslim was. That didn’t matter to the community that they had moved to.
It did get settled out of court, sort of. She got some money but no effort was made to reintegrate the school system they were driven from. No one lost their jobs (except the muslim family). The father became so distressed and disillusioned with the ‘American Dream’ that he went back to Lebanon.
Mahkno,
I hear you. I am not Mouse. Issues, what ever they may be, will always take place between people – in the school classroom, neighborhoods, villages, cities, etc. Most of the problems our society faces have nothing to do with the pledge. Unless a nation-wide poll is taken that determines how adults and/or children are treated when they refuse to recite the pledge, “expulsions, suspension, ridicule by teacher…” is pure speculation.
Unfortunately, in this country being a Muslim is…’a problem’ who and where ever you are.
Lastly: I do not ever recall ANYONE being asked or forced into revealing what GOD they are invoking when they recite the pledge… Having 20 Baptist churches in a small southern town is all you need to reaffirm a community-based faith [or burning Harry Potter books].
The preacher was Baptist AND a Christian Socialist.
“Issues, what ever they may be, will always take place between people – in the school classroom, neighborhoods, villages, cities, etc. Most of the problems our society faces have nothing to do with the pledge.”
Right, I’m following you.
“Unless a nation-wide poll is taken that determines how adults and/or children are treated when they refuse to recite the pledge, “expulsions, suspension, ridicule by teacher…” is pure speculation.”
But the fact that people have openly expressed this sentiment in this very thread is not speculation: it’s observation.
“Unfortunately, in this country being a Muslim is…’a problem’ who and where ever you are.”
Only to paranoid simpletons who confuse jingoism with patriotism.
“I do not ever recall ANYONE being asked or forced into revealing what GOD they are invoking when they recite the pledge…”
Strawman–don’t be coy. The Presbyterians were behind the addition of the words,”under God,” so unless Presbyterians were something other than protestants in 1954, I remain unmoved on this argument.
Usually you have good ideas, Mahkno, but your ideas about “rights”,
“entitlements” and “coercion” are all screwed up. Coercion involves force. There is no force in saying that if you make a decision to express your disloyalty to the country, you forfeit certain benefits the taxpayers offer. Nobody is going to jail. Nor does the U.S. Constitution say anything about a “right” to a free education. That is something modern liberals made up.
We all of issues with various govt. policies. Some of those complaints are deeply felt (many who oppose abortion, for instance, feel the country is committing a grave moral outrage). But if your feelings are deep enough to refuse to give one’s loyalty to the country, then face up to your decision. You are not a loyal citizen and should find another county.
Taxpayers should not be paying to provide benefits to avowed enemies of our country. That is how I feel, and I make no apologies for it.
Dang, Mouse, the spin is thick on this one. Actually, you’re the one who got it wrong.
From dictionary.com:
Coercion – “use of force OR INTIMIDATION to obtain compliance”
“There is no force in saying that if you make a decision to express your disloyalty to the country, you forfeit certain benefits the taxpayers offer.”
No, no force, just intimidation. And deceiving language. And lies. First off, there is no disloyalty in an American citizen refusing to say the pledge–it’s called dissent. Second, people do not forfeit certain benefits for this, you just think they ought to. Big difference.
The constitution does say that people are to be treated equally under the law. It’s called the 14th amendment. The modern liberals you’re referring to must be the congress of 1868.
“But if your feelings are deep enough to refuse to give one’s loyalty to the country, then face up to your decision. You are not a loyal citizen and should find another county.
Taxpayers should not be paying to provide benefits to avowed enemies of our country. That is how I feel, and I make no apologies for it.”
There’s a huge difference between “avowed enemy” and “citizen who is troubled by what we’ve become” who refuses to say the pledge of allegiance. Nice spin, though.
Personally, I’m of the opinion that people who pretend they have patriotism and try to use it to belittle others and tell them to leave the country ought to be deported themselves. That’s how I feel, and I make no apologies for it.
Postsimian,
Actually, you got it wrong.
In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, added the words, ‘under God,’ to the Pledge.
Makes me wonder what else you are wrong about.
Are you serious? A few people on this site write about the Pledge and intimidation and you call THAT observation? I observed Bigfoot and the Grassman of Ohio saying the Pledge last night!
The Presbyterian minister George MacPherson Docherty did influence Ike in ’54. Eisenhower had the wheels turning in Congress to incorporate Docherty’s suggestion into law. On February 8, 1954, Rep. Charles Oakman (R-Mich.), introduced a bill to that effect.
Postsimian is not wholly wrong, but he is still a dork.
I figured you just needed to scroll down a little bit on that wikipedia article, anyway ;D
In other news, I’m flattered that thoughts of me invoke the image of a penis. Guess we can’t all be Batman for Halloween. :/
Name calling rarely makes one’s point more or less valid.
“Are you serious? A few people on this site write about the Pledge and intimidation and you call THAT observation? I observed Bigfoot and the Grassman of Ohio saying the Pledge last night!”
Missed this little tidbit. So to that, I respond with the actual quote. Please show me where this is not intimidation, or that it is somehow not extreme:
Original post:
“My 7th grader chooses not to recite the pledge. He was only confronted about it one time. We did, however, explain how his actions might hurt the feelings of his classmates and teachers who are in the military. His response was that reciting the pledge has nothing to do with hoping troops arrive home safe, healthy, and soon.
Left by Rixblix on June 18th, 2008”
Response:
“If your 7th. Grader goes to a public school, he should be expelled. The taxpayers should not have to subsidize him. In any event, someday, someone will teach him the brat a lesson.
Left by The Mouse on June 18th, 2008”
He then went on to say that people like this ought to leave the country. Sounds pretty fringe to me.
Just to be on the safe side, since I don’t really know you that well… In case you’re one of those people who are incapable of detecting sarcasm, my response to him on that point was satirical.
“But if your feelings are deep enough to refuse to give one’s loyalty to the country, then face up to your decision. You are not a loyal citizen and should find another county.”
We’re talking about a 7th grader, right?
Grandma’s Attic, quit being such a traitor. If you’re not with us, then you’re with the terrorists, duh.
Hey Diane I am going to see Cheap Trick too! $30 is a bargin these days for a big name like them.
The rest of you are getting pretty intense.
Cool Peoriafan! I’ll look for you. Hey, wait a minute. How can I look for you.. I don’t even know you. ha ha 😉
Cheap Trick = big name?
Name calling? Please people. Just having a little fun. Why be so serious? If you guys have such issues with a little goofing around, no wonder you get bent about the Pledge.
Postsimian…you are absolutely correct. Here I thought a truly representative poll consisted of at least 10-12 people. A couple of posts written by anon bloggers is all the evidence I need to see that this problem is indeed nation-wide!
Besides, I figured Wiki is where YOU got your info.
I ALREADY SAW CHEAP TRICK…FOR FREE!
Cool Peoriafan! I’ll look for you. Hey, wait a minute. How can I look for you.. I don’t even know you. ha ha
Diane-
Is that ANOTHER jab at anon bloggers!?!?!?
I take no offense. Wife calls me a dork all the time. But she also lets me sleep with her, too. (time to pay up, Mr. Voice >:D ). Anyway, my info comes from where my info comes, but wikipedia is helpful in a pinch. No shame in that. Moving on…
There’s really no denying that this sort of intimidation takes place in all areas. Hell, go to any news site and read the comments. This kind of paranoid hatred is spread far and wide. If it wasn’t, Fox News wouldn’t have any advertisers after calling something as common as a bro-bump a “terrorist fist jab.”
Then there’s patriotism, that old canard. One would have to be living under a rock for the past 7 years not to notice the excessive levels of belligerent nationalism to which the misnomer “patriotism” has been applied. Everyone is familiar with the slogans and bumper stickers that say “America: love it or leave it.” As it turns out, “love it” means “put a flag sticker on the back of your SUV and decorate it with smaller flags and put a flag in front of your house and wear flag pins and say the pledge of allegiance 3 times a day and listen to country music and go to church and vote republican or else you’re a liberal commie TRAITOR who thinks terrorists should have the same rights as ‘Merican citizens! Why do you hate America?”
Honestly, these clowns have escalated the rhetoric so high that they’ve become a cartoonish caricature of themselves.
Oh brother.
That was to new voice.
SURE IT WAS OMG HATE CRIME! (:P)
New Voice- Since Cheap Trick, like any other band charges a fee to play, who in Peoria would you expect to pick up the cost? So what if you saw them for free in St. Louis. Somebody paid for it. Would you expect the city to pay for them so you can see them for free?
Some on here will take any subject and give it negative spin.
Diane, I will be the one with the black & white checkered bow tie on.
Everyone has the right to protest in their own little way. Don’t want to say the Pledge…don’t say it.
Don’t want to pay $30.00 to see Cheap Trick [in Peoria]…don’t pay it.
Diane- You know I am having fun [at our] expense.
Peoriafan – YES! Why not have the city pay for it, so I and everyone else can see them for free? I am being a little sarcastic here. We have all spent a lot of cyber-time writing about Peoria’s pet projects and the millions the city [council] seems to be willing to spend [on crap]. Maybe a quality free show on the riverfront would bring back a little ‘have fun in Peoria’ spirit. It is either that or we are all forced to say the ‘Pledge to Peoria.’ Before anyone says it, the fireworks are indeed impressive.
Besides, I believe I was the first one to mention Cheap Trick in Peoria on this site. Peoriafan obviously did not read my post. He owes me an apology and $30.00.
Cheap Trick will perform at Riverfront on July 3 [along with Diamond Rio…..Diamond Who?]. Cost is $30.00. I saw Cheap Trick and a butt-kicking fireworks display in St. Louis last year…it was free! Took the wife and kids and had a ball. Just another Saturday down on the river in St. Louis.
I know Peoria is not St. Louis and does not have the big-city bucks. Problem is…I have not felt safe bringing my kids to the Riverfront at night for a long time now. The St. L riverfront area was fenced off and patrolled by private security and city police. So was the area outside of the fence.
I have never really noticed a stepped-up police presence in Peoria during major events [except for traffic control]. Does the Peoria Police Dept. work for the city of Peoria? Just wondering.
Left by New Voice on June 17th, 2008
The Riverfront is controlled by the Peoria Park District. When there are events, the Peoria Park District is in charge of security. They would need to request police presence for security needs. They don’t just show up unless there is a call put in, usually via 911. That’s what happens when the city gives the Park District total control.
So the price of a stamp has gone up…I’m not complaining though. I think it’s pretty damn neat that you can mail a letter anywhere in this fine country for 42 cents. Cheers
(CBS) Most children growing up in the US memorize the Pledge of Allegiance. But, in one Oregon elementary school, the kids won’t be allowed to recite it at an end of the year assembly.
The principal banned it that day so as not to offend Muslims.
Trolling Vonster?
The principal was a moron for doing this .. for the reasons stated. Practicing Muslims has no aversion to mentioning God, as the article stated.
The fact remains, we ought to NOT be making young students recite a pledge of loyalty to a flag OR, by inference, to God. We ought to teaching out children to be loyal to a nation that is founded on LAWS.
My 7th grader chooses not to recite the pledge. He was only confronted about it one time. We did, however, explain how his actions might hurt the feelings of his classmates and teachers who are in the military. His response was that reciting the pledge has nothing to do with hoping troops arrive home safe, healthy, and soon.
If your 7th. Grader goes to a public school, he should be expelled. The taxpayers should not have to subsidize him. In any event, someday, someone will teach him the brat a lesson.
He should be expelled? Uh. The whole moment of silence thing was overturned. While I might not agree with him or you, he’s entitled to his opinion. Isn’t that what that piece of fabric is supposed to represent?
Mouse: Wrong. His parents are taxpayers, He’s a resident of the school district and is thus entitled to the benefits every other person in such circumstances is in. You might want to read that part of the Constitution about equal benefits under the law.
Great point Vonster. Because that is one of the biggest problems facing this country. Spot on as usual.
In keeping with your usual train of thought, I heard the Clinton’s were responsible for this whole thing.
Finally found out where to get Cheap Trick tix for their July 3 concert at the Riverfront. Co-op Tapes and Records in Campustown at the corner of Main and University. No reserved seating and the tix are $30 bucks. You have to go there in person to get them. Anyone going??
In keeping with your train of thought Mazr,Bush is the reason for all bad things happening today including 12 year old children who won’t recite an allegiance to a country that their great grandparents fought and died for.
Great Grandparents, Great Uncles, Grandfathers and cousins fought and died for my right and my kid’s right NOT to have to recite an oath of allegiance.
Bill Dennis,
“We ought to teaching out children to be loyal to a nation that is founded on LAWS.”
Isn’t that what the Pledge does? What embodies our LAWS if not our REPUBLIC?
“I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.”
RIXBLIX,
“Great Grandparents, Great Uncles, Grandfathers and cousins fought and died for my right and my kid’s right NOT to have to recite an oath of allegiance.”
In the end…why is it so damn tough for YOUR kid to recite the pledge…maybe show a little respect for all of those “Great Grandparents, Great Uncles, Grandfathers and cousins.”
You people who are willing to invoke the ‘Patriotic Spirit’ to crush the ‘Patriotic Spirit,’ absolutely slay me.
Mr.New Voice, why is it so hard for you to accept that we all have the right and responsibility to honor each other and our country in our own way?
Rixblix,
So be it. Besides, after reading the other postings tonight, picking on you would not be fun anymore.
DIANE VESPA!
Two issues:
1.) I posted sometime ago about Cheap Trick tickets being $30.00, free St.Louis concert, cool fireworks, etc. You merely responded by posting a goofy, girlie-like message. I am displeased.
2.) What is your phone number?
Bill Dennis? I refuse to call any adult ‘Billy.’
Perhaps we need to bring History and Civics back into the curriculum so we teach our children why this country is so great.
Billy, I am not sure why a 7th grader has the same rights as an adult in your universe. Their judgment must be lacking because they can’t drive and can’t vote and/or perform other tasks which require adult thought.
Rixblix, Children usually express the same political position as their parents, so I assume you support the child’s “opinion” even though I might not call it independent thought.
And whats wrong with loyalty to the land that provides you with freedom and a good living – but for the grace of God (or pure chance if you prefer) you could have been born in Darfur or Kosovo or China or Cuba or Venezuela.
Of course you could also be born in the UK which allows their government to hold terrorists 42 days without charges or in Sweden which allows the government to spy on all communications that transverse their services or in France which uses “hate speech” laws to suppress Constitutionally protected discussions.
Ok – off the soap box – have a good day!
Hey, know what Murrel? I just finished blogging about it! We don’t necessarily support his position but as long as he’s willing to deal with the consequences….
Great.
Now we have to send Rixblix AND his kid to GITMO.
He’s a she.
Reciting the pledge of allegiance has zero bearing on one’s loyalty to one’s country. Demanding or requiring that the pledge to be recited is nothing more than coercion and intimidation. There is no loyalty in that.
The whole Under God part is inflammatory because to significant numbers of citizens of this country that ‘Under God’ refers to a specific God, which isn’t your God. It would be nice if we had a society that was all warm fuzzy and Ecumenical (sp?) but we DO NOT.
Oh and the whole Under God part wasn’t originally part of the pledge. The history of which has been elaborated on ad nauseum here and elsewhere.
So now we live in a representative democracy, eh?
OK… who do are our representatives represent?
let’s take a look at them… do they look like you and me? Did they go to the same school as you and me, inherit the same trust funds as you and me? Do they sit on the boards of the same multinational corporations as you and me?
Don’t kid yourself… when we vote someone in office who represents us, they get buried or bought off.
Reciting the pledge is not honoring policitians, kcdad. If you have read many of my posts, you know I am not an apologist for the establishment. But politics has to end somewhere. That somewhere is your loyalty to the country, as expressed in the Pledge. If you can’t pledge loyalty to the country, then you should get out. Period. Go somewhere more to your liking. And to suggest that our soldiers and sailors fought (let alone, died) to give this snot-nose kid the “right” to flagrantly disrespect the country is obscene. We don’t ask our citizens, or our troops, to pledge loyalty to any King, dictator, President, or party. Our troops salute the flag every day. Their loyalty is to the country. If have no use for those who think they have a “right” to be disloyal.
Mahkno,
Usually you have something good to say, but this time….well, you must have been drinking when you wrote your last post. What the hell is wrong with you people? Coercion and intimidation? Nobody is “forced” to do anything anymore. Our country may or may not live up to the ideals expressed in the Pledge, but I believe WE as a PEOPLE try.
For most younger school-age children the Pledge might be their very first ‘lesson’ in American history. It at least explains/summarizes what we as a democratic republic strive for: liberty, justice, etc.
People are not stupid…at least most people. The context of “Under God” can and has changed. I believe most people cut-and-paste the image of their own god, placing it neatly in the pledge. As far as I know…no one is demanding that a certain ‘god’ be invoked every time the pledge is recited.
Do you anti-Pledge people remained seated at sporting events when the anthem is song? I’ll bet Mahkno is the only guy sitting on his butt at a ball game when the flag goes up!
A few type-o mistakes. I caught them.
New Voice… did you read what Mouse wrote? He wants kids expelled, their benefits cut off, and ultimately he alludes to violence. Smacks of coercion if I ever read. If a school requires students to recite that pledge, what is the consequence if they do not? Expulsions, suspension, ridicule by teacher? Coercion! If someone wants to recite the pledge then fine… as long as it is a voluntary event. But don’t go reading too much into it.
Yes people DO place their own God in the image they invoke when reciting the pledge. It happens a LOT. Depending on where you are, it can most certainly be viewed as an act of demanding that one accede to the prevailing faith of the community, the classroom, or that of the teacher. It is also viewed as affirming that specific prevailing faith. Something that the Constitution clearly wants to avoid. That doesn’t bother these folks because they don’t agree with what is in the Constitution. They most certainly want the(ir) church involved at every level of public life. That includes the Pledge of Allegiance.
Now is this common in Peoria? Not as far as I have seen, but down South, very much so.
People’s basic rights need to be protected. There were good reasons for why the Pledge, as originally conceived, deliberately avoided any religious reference. It was written by a Baptist minister. He understood full well the perils of including something akin to Under God.
This reminds me of an episode of This American Life where they profiled a young Muslim child who was literally driven out of town, along with her family. The father was a largely secular leaning immigrant from Lebanon, the mother was second or third generation Muslim woman who also was very secular, the child barely knew what being a muslim was. That didn’t matter to the community that they had moved to.
It did get settled out of court, sort of. She got some money but no effort was made to reintegrate the school system they were driven from. No one lost their jobs (except the muslim family). The father became so distressed and disillusioned with the ‘American Dream’ that he went back to Lebanon.
Mahkno,
I hear you. I am not Mouse. Issues, what ever they may be, will always take place between people – in the school classroom, neighborhoods, villages, cities, etc. Most of the problems our society faces have nothing to do with the pledge. Unless a nation-wide poll is taken that determines how adults and/or children are treated when they refuse to recite the pledge, “expulsions, suspension, ridicule by teacher…” is pure speculation.
Unfortunately, in this country being a Muslim is…’a problem’ who and where ever you are.
Lastly: I do not ever recall ANYONE being asked or forced into revealing what GOD they are invoking when they recite the pledge… Having 20 Baptist churches in a small southern town is all you need to reaffirm a community-based faith [or burning Harry Potter books].
The preacher was Baptist AND a Christian Socialist.
“Issues, what ever they may be, will always take place between people – in the school classroom, neighborhoods, villages, cities, etc. Most of the problems our society faces have nothing to do with the pledge.”
Right, I’m following you.
“Unless a nation-wide poll is taken that determines how adults and/or children are treated when they refuse to recite the pledge, “expulsions, suspension, ridicule by teacher…” is pure speculation.”
But the fact that people have openly expressed this sentiment in this very thread is not speculation: it’s observation.
“Unfortunately, in this country being a Muslim is…’a problem’ who and where ever you are.”
Only to paranoid simpletons who confuse jingoism with patriotism.
“I do not ever recall ANYONE being asked or forced into revealing what GOD they are invoking when they recite the pledge…”
Strawman–don’t be coy. The Presbyterians were behind the addition of the words,”under God,” so unless Presbyterians were something other than protestants in 1954, I remain unmoved on this argument.
Usually you have good ideas, Mahkno, but your ideas about “rights”,
“entitlements” and “coercion” are all screwed up. Coercion involves force. There is no force in saying that if you make a decision to express your disloyalty to the country, you forfeit certain benefits the taxpayers offer. Nobody is going to jail. Nor does the U.S. Constitution say anything about a “right” to a free education. That is something modern liberals made up.
We all of issues with various govt. policies. Some of those complaints are deeply felt (many who oppose abortion, for instance, feel the country is committing a grave moral outrage). But if your feelings are deep enough to refuse to give one’s loyalty to the country, then face up to your decision. You are not a loyal citizen and should find another county.
Taxpayers should not be paying to provide benefits to avowed enemies of our country. That is how I feel, and I make no apologies for it.
Dang, Mouse, the spin is thick on this one. Actually, you’re the one who got it wrong.
From dictionary.com:
Coercion – “use of force OR INTIMIDATION to obtain compliance”
“There is no force in saying that if you make a decision to express your disloyalty to the country, you forfeit certain benefits the taxpayers offer.”
No, no force, just intimidation. And deceiving language. And lies. First off, there is no disloyalty in an American citizen refusing to say the pledge–it’s called dissent. Second, people do not forfeit certain benefits for this, you just think they ought to. Big difference.
The constitution does say that people are to be treated equally under the law. It’s called the 14th amendment. The modern liberals you’re referring to must be the congress of 1868.
“But if your feelings are deep enough to refuse to give one’s loyalty to the country, then face up to your decision. You are not a loyal citizen and should find another county.
Taxpayers should not be paying to provide benefits to avowed enemies of our country. That is how I feel, and I make no apologies for it.”
There’s a huge difference between “avowed enemy” and “citizen who is troubled by what we’ve become” who refuses to say the pledge of allegiance. Nice spin, though.
Personally, I’m of the opinion that people who pretend they have patriotism and try to use it to belittle others and tell them to leave the country ought to be deported themselves. That’s how I feel, and I make no apologies for it.
Postsimian,
Actually, you got it wrong.
In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, added the words, ‘under God,’ to the Pledge.
Makes me wonder what else you are wrong about.
Are you serious? A few people on this site write about the Pledge and intimidation and you call THAT observation? I observed Bigfoot and the Grassman of Ohio saying the Pledge last night!
The Presbyterian minister George MacPherson Docherty did influence Ike in ’54. Eisenhower had the wheels turning in Congress to incorporate Docherty’s suggestion into law. On February 8, 1954, Rep. Charles Oakman (R-Mich.), introduced a bill to that effect.
Postsimian is not wholly wrong, but he is still a dork.
I figured you just needed to scroll down a little bit on that wikipedia article, anyway ;D
In other news, I’m flattered that thoughts of me invoke the image of a penis. Guess we can’t all be Batman for Halloween. :/
Name calling rarely makes one’s point more or less valid.
“Are you serious? A few people on this site write about the Pledge and intimidation and you call THAT observation? I observed Bigfoot and the Grassman of Ohio saying the Pledge last night!”
Missed this little tidbit. So to that, I respond with the actual quote. Please show me where this is not intimidation, or that it is somehow not extreme:
Original post:
“My 7th grader chooses not to recite the pledge. He was only confronted about it one time. We did, however, explain how his actions might hurt the feelings of his classmates and teachers who are in the military. His response was that reciting the pledge has nothing to do with hoping troops arrive home safe, healthy, and soon.
Left by Rixblix on June 18th, 2008”
Response:
“If your 7th. Grader goes to a public school, he should be expelled. The taxpayers should not have to subsidize him. In any event, someday, someone will teach him the brat a lesson.
Left by The Mouse on June 18th, 2008”
He then went on to say that people like this ought to leave the country. Sounds pretty fringe to me.
Just to be on the safe side, since I don’t really know you that well… In case you’re one of those people who are incapable of detecting sarcasm, my response to him on that point was satirical.
“But if your feelings are deep enough to refuse to give one’s loyalty to the country, then face up to your decision. You are not a loyal citizen and should find another county.”
We’re talking about a 7th grader, right?
Grandma’s Attic, quit being such a traitor. If you’re not with us, then you’re with the terrorists, duh.
Hey Diane I am going to see Cheap Trick too! $30 is a bargin these days for a big name like them.
The rest of you are getting pretty intense.
Cool Peoriafan! I’ll look for you. Hey, wait a minute. How can I look for you.. I don’t even know you. ha ha 😉
Cheap Trick = big name?
Name calling? Please people. Just having a little fun. Why be so serious? If you guys have such issues with a little goofing around, no wonder you get bent about the Pledge.
Postsimian…you are absolutely correct. Here I thought a truly representative poll consisted of at least 10-12 people. A couple of posts written by anon bloggers is all the evidence I need to see that this problem is indeed nation-wide!
Besides, I figured Wiki is where YOU got your info.
I ALREADY SAW CHEAP TRICK…FOR FREE!
Cool Peoriafan! I’ll look for you. Hey, wait a minute. How can I look for you.. I don’t even know you. ha ha
Diane-
Is that ANOTHER jab at anon bloggers!?!?!?
I take no offense. Wife calls me a dork all the time. But she also lets me sleep with her, too. (time to pay up, Mr. Voice >:D ). Anyway, my info comes from where my info comes, but wikipedia is helpful in a pinch. No shame in that. Moving on…
There’s really no denying that this sort of intimidation takes place in all areas. Hell, go to any news site and read the comments. This kind of paranoid hatred is spread far and wide. If it wasn’t, Fox News wouldn’t have any advertisers after calling something as common as a bro-bump a “terrorist fist jab.”
Then there’s patriotism, that old canard. One would have to be living under a rock for the past 7 years not to notice the excessive levels of belligerent nationalism to which the misnomer “patriotism” has been applied. Everyone is familiar with the slogans and bumper stickers that say “America: love it or leave it.” As it turns out, “love it” means “put a flag sticker on the back of your SUV and decorate it with smaller flags and put a flag in front of your house and wear flag pins and say the pledge of allegiance 3 times a day and listen to country music and go to church and vote republican or else you’re a liberal commie TRAITOR who thinks terrorists should have the same rights as ‘Merican citizens! Why do you hate America?”
Honestly, these clowns have escalated the rhetoric so high that they’ve become a cartoonish caricature of themselves.
Oh brother.
That was to new voice.
SURE IT WAS OMG HATE CRIME! (:P)
New Voice- Since Cheap Trick, like any other band charges a fee to play, who in Peoria would you expect to pick up the cost? So what if you saw them for free in St. Louis. Somebody paid for it. Would you expect the city to pay for them so you can see them for free?
Some on here will take any subject and give it negative spin.
Diane, I will be the one with the black & white checkered bow tie on.
Everyone has the right to protest in their own little way. Don’t want to say the Pledge…don’t say it.
Don’t want to pay $30.00 to see Cheap Trick [in Peoria]…don’t pay it.
Diane- You know I am having fun [at our] expense.
Peoriafan – YES! Why not have the city pay for it, so I and everyone else can see them for free? I am being a little sarcastic here. We have all spent a lot of cyber-time writing about Peoria’s pet projects and the millions the city [council] seems to be willing to spend [on crap]. Maybe a quality free show on the riverfront would bring back a little ‘have fun in Peoria’ spirit. It is either that or we are all forced to say the ‘Pledge to Peoria.’ Before anyone says it, the fireworks are indeed impressive.
Besides, I believe I was the first one to mention Cheap Trick in Peoria on this site. Peoriafan obviously did not read my post. He owes me an apology and $30.00.
Cheap Trick will perform at Riverfront on July 3 [along with Diamond Rio…..Diamond Who?]. Cost is $30.00. I saw Cheap Trick and a butt-kicking fireworks display in St. Louis last year…it was free! Took the wife and kids and had a ball. Just another Saturday down on the river in St. Louis.
I know Peoria is not St. Louis and does not have the big-city bucks. Problem is…I have not felt safe bringing my kids to the Riverfront at night for a long time now. The St. L riverfront area was fenced off and patrolled by private security and city police. So was the area outside of the fence.
I have never really noticed a stepped-up police presence in Peoria during major events [except for traffic control]. Does the Peoria Police Dept. work for the city of Peoria? Just wondering.
Left by New Voice on June 17th, 2008
The Riverfront is controlled by the Peoria Park District. When there are events, the Peoria Park District is in charge of security. They would need to request police presence for security needs. They don’t just show up unless there is a call put in, usually via 911. That’s what happens when the city gives the Park District total control.